General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[angrysoba]

"Just another Parky thread about how Israel isn't a liberal democracy, therefore it's not so bad if it gets destroyed."

oh look..what's this I see? could it be....a strawman?

yes...it is a strawman!!! hello strawman.

Thunder:

Who said that stone-throwing constituted terrorism?

 

[Virus]

"Just another Parky thread about how Israel isn't a liberal democracy, therefore it's not so bad if it gets destroyed."

oh look..what's this I see? could it be....a strawman?

yes...it is a strawman!!! hello strawman.

So I'm not on ignore then?

 

[tyr_13]

Still missing in action is the ADL's claim that throwing rocks is terrorism. Thunder claims that the ADL have said this but he hasn't provided any evidence of his claim.

I'm very confused by this. Have you ascertained that throwing rocks at soldiers is considered terrorism?

You haven't proven that the ADL have called throwing rocks at soldiers terrorism. You just assert that they do.

But secondly, what you are saying now is very confusing indeed.



Where do the ADL say it is?

And, how can you be a citizen of a country "occupy[ing] your town"?

If they were Palestinians being occupied then they wouldn't have Israeli citizenship. If they were Israelis who consider Israelis to be alien occupiers of their town then they surely wouldn't want Israeli citizenship.

Can you substantiate your claim that the ADL consider rock-throwing is terrorism?

Will Israelis lose their citizenship for throwing rocks and if so is this considered terrorism?

Why would anyone who considers themselves to be occupied by the Israelis also consider themselves as Israeli?

Yes, Thunder. And for the umpteenth frikkin' time, where does the ADL say that stone-throwing is terrorism as per your charge?

Thunder:

Who said that stone-throwing constituted terrorism?

They didn't.

 

[Thunder]

They didn't.

they very clearly say that a call for a new intifada is a call for terrorism against Israel.

I have yet to see any evidence that this is a fact. the Haaretz article says the official calls on the page are for non-violent protest.

now, is the group responsible for violent comments posted on their page? perhaps they should be.

but the fact remains that much of what went on during the 1st Intifada...was rock throwing. that's the image I have in my memory of the 1st Intifada. It was a people's uprising.

unlike the 2nd Intifads, which was more of a war between Hamas, Fatah, and Israel.

 

[angrysoba]

they very clearly say that a call for a new intifada is a call for terrorism against Israel.

I have yet to see any evidence that this is a fact. the Haaretz article says the official calls on the page are for non-violent protest.

now, is the group responsible for violent comments posted on their page? perhaps they should be.

but the fact remains that much of what went on during the 1st Intifada...was rock throwing. that's the image I have in my memory of the 1st Intifada. It was a people's uprising.

unlike the 2nd Intifads, which was more of a war between Hamas, Fatah, and Israel.

No, the ADL say that the Facebook people claim that a new intifada will be peaceful. The ADL say that anyone who believes an intifada will be peaceful is naiive.

Note:

The ADL are NOT saying that the Facebook people are calling for violence. The ADL just don't believe that the intifada will be peaceful and they point to the second intifada as evidence of this.

The second intifada involved suicide bombings, shootings and lynchings. Suicide bombings of cafes and restaurants and buses ARE terrorism. The ADL say that if you don't expect this to happen from another intifada then you are naiive.

Thunder says that the Facebook people are calling for peaceful protests. So does the ADL. Yet Thunder also says that a new intifada will involve stone-throwing (proving that he's not THAT naiive) so Thunder knows that a new intifada will not only involve peaceful protests.


The ADL say nothing about stone-throwing still less Thunder's strawman that stone-throwing is terrorism.

So Thunder, why not just admit that this was a dumb thread based on a false premise and your excitable need to get morally outraged. Not about suicide bombing. Oh no! But about the ADL being morally outraged at suicide bombing and the irresponsibility of the hopelessly naiive.

 

[Skeptic]

do u read Arabic?

I read Arabic (not too well, to say the least, but still). So do the folks in MEMRI (very well).

Do you?

If not, what other evidence do you have for us lying all the time about what the Arabic original "really means" apart from the fact that you don't want it to be true?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

they very clearly say that a call for a new intifada is a call for terrorism against Israel.

I have yet to see any evidence that this is a fact. the Haaretz article says the official calls on the page are for non-violent protest.

now, is the group responsible for violent comments posted on their page? perhaps they should be.

but the fact remains that much of what went on during the 1st Intifada...was rock throwing. that's the image I have in my memory of the 1st Intifada. It was a people's uprising.

unlike the 2nd Intifads, which was more of a war between Hamas, Fatah, and Israel.

So you seriously think Intifada effectively means throwing stones?

Where did you learn about the Intifada's Parky?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

One thing i hate in this discussion is the left screaming "Zionazi!" at every time Israel even so much as lift a finger.

It's not as if Palestinians are being regularly rounded up into barns and set alight, is it?

 

[Thunder]

So you seriously think Intifada effectively means throwing stones?

is this a strawman or just a misunderstanding of my point?

 

[boyntonstu]

Don't Generalize about Arab/Muslim Countries

http://debka.com/article/20809/

Bahrain. Tehran, though temporarily set back by Saudi military intervention, is again roiling the Shiite population into rising up against the throne. The oil-rich island kingdom is in for more riotous demonstrations. Here, too, Hizballah’s destabilizing hand has left its mark.

Egypt. The political and religious elites are at each other’s throats. Both are undermining the efforts of the military junta which took over after Hosni Mubarak’s ouster to establish its authority.

Yemen. This strategic Red Sea nation is sinking ever deeper into a bloody, interminable civil war.

Syria. President Bashar Assad’s efforts to offer concessions, including his sacking of the government Tuesday, March 29, as bones to appease the Sunni majority have had the opposite effect. Tempers of the disaffected groups in Syria are rising, together with a widespread willingness to brave a brutal crackdown and mass arrests. Syria is beginning to fall into the same sort of sea-saw standoff as Libya."

Israel- All quiet on the Western Front.

Are the Israeli Arabs more satisfied with their lot living in a clean Jewish State?

 

[Thunder]

One thing i hate in this discussion is the left screaming "Zionazi!" at every time Israel even so much as lift a finger.

do you mean this discussion..here ar JREF? because if that's the case, then you are clearly lying, as no one here has made such a statement in this discussion.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Thunder,

I meant general discussion of Israel/Palestine, not this thread. sorry if i didn't make it clearer.

 

[Thunder]

Thunder,

I meant general discussion of Israel/Palestine, not this thread. sorry if i didn't make it clearer.

thank goodness.

though i have to say, when i talk to most people about middl-east issues, i rarely if ever hear the term "ZioNazi".

that's a term used by anti-Semites and Arab nationalists.

 

[Virus]

And this guy with the Che Guevara cap:

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/IMG_0272.JPG

 

[NWO Sentryman]

thank goodness.

though i have to say, when i talk to most people about middl-east issues, i rarely if ever hear the term "ZioNazi".

that's a term used by anti-Semites and Arab nationalists.

Many people at protests related to Israel often hold placards juxtaposing the Israeli flag and the Swastika or make other comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany.

So i guess the IDF are all Oskar Dirlewangers and Isle Koches by their standards?

 

[Thunder]

Many people at protests related to Israel often hold placards juxtaposing the Israeli flag and the Swastika or make other comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany.

i don't go to such protests, so I woudn't know.

ive only seen such things on...well...the internet.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

is this a strawman or just a misunderstanding of my point?

Ok, I'll rephrase.

The ADL is not equating rock throwing with terrorism.

They ARE expressing the (correct) view that terrorism occurs during an Intifada.

You are claiming that an intifada is not terrorism and using rock throwing as an example of what an intifada is.


What do you think an Intifada is, and where did you learn about it?

 

[AlexBr]

the major activities of the 1st and 2nd Intifada was thousands of Palestinians taking to the streets, chucking stones at the IDF invaders.

According to Betselem and OCHA the period of the 2nd Intifada resulted in the following fatality numbers.

Palestinians killed -- 4158 (3508 by Israel and 650 by other Palestinians). Among those 94% were males, 6% females; 20% were minors.

Israelis killed -- 1032.
Among those 69% were males, 31% females; 12% were minors.

I think these figures help to understand what Intifada means in practice.

Just for comparison, the total number of casualties on both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict since 1948 till the beginning of the 1st Intifada (40 years period) is estimated to be 5,000 people.

 

[truethat]

Well I can't say for certain what the ratio is. Palestinians have obviously thrown rocks at both soldiers and civilians. In the latter, I would think that is a form terrorism, of the former I don't think so. If it was Israeli civilians attacking Israeli soldiers with rocks, what would that be?

Attacking people with rocks is assault


attacking people with rocks for political reasons is terrorism.



You could make the same argument that a "suicide bomber" is just blowing them selves and other people up. It's murder and it's violence but it isn't terrorism.

The thing that makes it terrorism is that it is done for political reasons.

But as has been said, that's now what the ADL said, it's just what Thunder said they said.

 

[mortimer]

One thing i hate in this discussion is the left screaming "Zionazi!" at every time Israel even so much as lift a finger.

It's not as if Palestinians are being regularly rounded up into barns and set alight, is it?

Psst... the PC term for "Zionazi" around here is "Neo-Zionist".