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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Used it in what way Thunder?

Does a state of belligerency exist between Hamas and Israel?

I believe that under the laws of war, Israel can only use the airspace of Gaza without Gaza's permission if it is for the purposes of self-defense.

But in any other situation, Gaza's consent is required, and Gaza has the right to shoot down any unauthorized Israeli planes or helicopters that enter its airspace without permission.
 
I respond in such a fashion when folks ask me a very stupid or clearly obvious question.

Asking me if I believe that anyone who expresses a double-standard, hypocrisy, or ulterior-motives is a "Neo-Zionist", is a pretty stupid question.

Thunder said:
the only double-standard, hypocrisy, and ulterior motives, are the ones that Neo-Zionists apply.

You're right. It is clearly obvious, taking your above statement literally, that you really do think only "Neo-Zionists" express double-standards, hypocrisy, and ulterior motives. Therefore, anyone who does so is, by your definition, a "Neo-Zionist".

I disagree, of course. I believe double-talking hypcrites come in various flavors.
 
I believe that under the laws of war, Israel can only use the airspace of Gaza without Gaza's permission if it is for the purposes of self-defense.

But in any other situation, Gaza's consent is required, and Gaza has the right to shoot down any unauthorized Israeli planes or helicopters that enter its airspace without permission.

Gaza isn't a sovereign state Parky. Hamas is designated terrorist organization. You don't need to ask a terrorist's permission to fly over their criminal enclaves.
 
Gaza isn't a sovereign state Parky. Hamas is designated terrorist organization. You don't need to ask a terrorist's permission to fly over their criminal enclaves.

really, a nation does not need permission to fly over territory that does not belong to them?

wow....talk about having your cake and eating it too.

Israel demands that their end of Occupation be acknowledged, but they still want fly-over rights.

Fascinating stuff. Talk about double-standards.
 
There's no rule saying you need a terrorist's permission to fly over an enclave they've strong-armed under their control.

Find it and you'll have a case.
 
There's no rule saying you need a terrorist's permission to fly over an enclave they've strong-armed under their control.

Find it and you'll have a case.

there is also no rule saying that a territory that is no longer under the Occupation of nation X, can't fire upon nation X's airplanes if they have no permission to be in their airspace.

if China flew a plane into American airspace with no permission, I'd expect the USAF to blow it out of the sky.
 
Honestly, you guys can't argue that Israel no longer Occupies Gaza, and yet also argue that Israel has the legal right to use Gaza's waters & airspace without permission.

Well you can, but it would be very silly and stupid.
 
Does the US need to ask the Taliban for permission to fly over territory they've seized?
 
Does the US need to ask the Taliban for permission to fly over territory they've seized?

no. but the Coalition's right to use Afghanistan's airspace is confirmed by the United Nations and the government of Afghnistan.

let us know when the United Nations recognizes Israel's right to make use of Gaza's airspace and territorial waters.....even though Israel is no longer the Occupying Power.
 
I don't have a lot of time at the moment, and frankly I don't really understand the argument you're trying to make here, but if it hinges on US forces not occupying Fallujah in May of 2004, then here is a Wikipedia article that describes the insurgents as being the occupiers at that time. If that terminology was common at that time, I don't know, but if it wasn't, I'd suspect because it was more a technical issue than a matter of practical importance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah_during_the_Iraq_War#Siege.2C_April_2004

Perhaps you could comment on your own source. Remember? The one you said this about:

I can quote an article that I essentially agree with that follows the same line of thought.

http://www.ejiltalk.org/is-gaza-still-occupied-by-israel/

What a surprise, then, that one of the points of disagreement is this:

Mycroft's Source said:
Occupation does not necessarily mean the control of all of the territory, all of the time, at the same level of intensity. Many occupations meet with significant and active resistance while they are ongoing. Consider, for example, the US and UK-led occupation of Iraq. The strength of the insurgency there was such that at any given time these states lacked control over, say, some parts of the Sunni Triangle or some parts of Basra. That does not mean that their occupation of those parts of Iraq ceased, because the occupants were able to reestablish their control at will, as they did. The lapse in control was merely temporary, due to the fact that the level of resistance was such that the occupants could not control all of Iraq, every bit of it, all of the time.

Another well-known example is the German occupation of Yugoslavia during World War II. The partisans fighting against the Nazis were from time to time able to temporarily liberate a bit of territory here or there, but that did not mean that Germany’s occupation ceased. This was so because, as the military tribunal at Nuremberg ruled in United States v. List, ‘the Germans could at any time they desired assume physical control of any part’ of Yugoslavia. The ICTY in Naletilic likewise ruled that an occupation exists so long as the occupying army has the ‘capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make the authority of the occupying power felt’ (a similar standard is set in the US Field Manual; see Shany’s article cited above, at 6, for the citations).

And, if you want Fallujah specifically, then read the comments and your source's respsonse to them.

comment said:
Regarding what it would take to re-establish control over Gaza, the difference with Germany in Yugoslavia/US in Iraq is actually not at all intuitively obvious. The reconquest of Fallujah required two battles and the deaths of I believe around 100 U.S. military.

response said:
As for the Fallujah comparison, if reassuming control would be as easy as you say, the case for Israel remaining the occupant of Gaza is that much stronger. But this is essentially a military question. If we were now before the ICJ, we would need to hear expert testimony on the matter to actually form an opinion. My initial impression was the opposite, but it might well be wrong.

If the US did try to say that Fallujah was not occupied, then maybe the double standard is one that favours the USA over what your source says is the case.
 
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no. but the Coalition's right to use Afghanistan's airspace is confirmed by the United Nations and the government of Afghnistan.

let us know when the United Nations recognizes Israel's right to make use of Gaza's airspace and territorial waters.....even though Israel is no longer the Occupying Power.

You've already conceded that Israel has the right to enter territory or airspace to defend itself.

Next outrage please.
 
You've already conceded that Israel has the right to enter territory or airspace to defend itself.

yes, when Hamas fires rockets into Israel, Israel then has the right to respond how it sees fit.

but until that happens, Israel has no business being in Gaza's air or waters.

oh...and btw....even when Israel is defending itself from rocket attacks, Gaza still has the right to blow the IAF out of the sky.

that's how war works.
 
Israel's authority has been established in Gaza, it was exercised in Gaza and it can be exercised in Gaza. Ergo, it is occupied by Israel.

By that token, the Russian Federation occupies a rather disturbing number of central Asian nations.

I mean, seriously? "authority was exercised and can be exercised"? That's your threshold for occupation? In that case, what countries aren't currently occupied by the US?

The Philippines? Occupied. Japan? Germany? Italy? All occupied. The Korean peninsula? Occupied. Vietnam? Occupied.

Mexico? The US Army captured Mexico City, back in the 1800's. I don't think there's any doubt the US Army could do it again any time. So that's Mexico occupied.

From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli (ha!), US authority has been exercised and can be exercised. So by your reasoning, the US occupies most of the globe...

... OH. I see what you did there. Well played, FG. Well played.
 
By that token, the Russian Federation occupies a rather disturbing number of central Asian nations.

any evidence that Russia has soldiers on any nation's territory without that nation's consent?

Russia has NO soldiers in the Baltic States. why do you think that is?
 
yes, when Hamas fires rockets into Israel, Israel then has the right to respond how it sees fit.

but until that happens, Israel has no business being in Gaza's air or waters.

oh...and btw....even when Israel is defending itself from rocket attacks, Gaza still has the right to blow the IAF out of the sky.

that's how war works.

I...I don't even.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12814466

At least 17 people have been injured by a series of Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medics say.
There were reports of up to nine explosions in Gaza City, and in the north and south of the territory.
Witnesses say militant training camps operated by Hamas were targeted, as well as a workshop and cement factory.
On Saturday, Palestinian militants fired dozens of mortars into southern Israel in what was reportedly their heaviest such barrage in two years.
Among those wounded in Monday's air strikes were seven children, Palestinian medical officials said.
 
I believe that under the laws of war, Israel can only use the airspace of Gaza without Gaza's permission if it is for the purposes of self-defense.

But in any other situation, Gaza's consent is required, and Gaza has the right to shoot down any unauthorized Israeli planes or helicopters that enter its airspace without permission.

You just said Gaza is occupied because Israel assumes control. Now you say Israel must ask permission of the territory it occupies.

Classic Parky right there.
 
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