General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

And I bet you don't say the same for the Hawaiians who, though theyve been given no land, and are reduced to a tiny percentage of the population of palestinians, haven't gone and killed significant numbers of illegal settlers yet

strawman. there are no illegal settlers in Hawaii.

unless you are referring to possible illegal immigrants. is that what you meant?

 

[Thunder]

This is in essence Bikerdruid's and Thunder's view. Especially the one-month old -- what was he thinking, being Jewish like that in a place where Jews are killed?

Just as expected, Skeptic some how misses the part where I feel nothing but sympathy for the dead children, who did nothing of their own-free will to be put in this situation.

 

[Thunder]

I wish to point to Thunder's avatar: that of Colonel von Stuaffenberg, Hitler's would-be assassin. He (Stauffenberg, not Thunder) failed, was executed with his co-conspirators, and his own family (including women and children) were thrown into concentration camps.

Using Thunder's "logic", the imprisoning of his family and the death of his friends are all his fault: he knew that Hitler and his henchmen are extremely vindictive and violent people, so why did he put himself, his friends, and his family "in the line of fire"? And to think we have all those films of the conspirators bravely dying, hanged with piano wire in the gestapo's prisons. In reality the movies should show von Stauffenberg himself hanging them, for his terrible crime of being in the line of fire.

Then again, perhaps the reason Thunder uses that avatar is as a warning to the world to not ever put oneself "in the line of fire". Perhaps it's his attempt at a moral condemnation of Stuaffenberg's evil, putting-himself-in-the-line-of-fire acts, much like he is (see my signature) rather angry at the Warsaw ghetto uprisers, putting themselves in the line of fire like that: what did the Nazis ever do to them?

Of course, that's not too likely. Stauffenberg, unlike the Warsaw ghetto defenders or the dead in this latest attack, was not Jewish. Only Jews are to blame for their own deaths, you know.

big....fat....derail.

 

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by CIA
West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Israel removed settlers and military personnel from the Gaza Strip in August 2005.


.....well, as an American, that's good enough for me.

 

[Par]

...israeli settlers getting killed is kinda like when someone chooses to live in a well-known flood-prone area. we all feel bad for them when the flood does happen..every 10 years or so, but we also ask ourselves: "why the hell do they live there knowing the likelyhood of a tragedy?????" i of course feel horrible for the settler kids, who were put in such a dangerous situation by their stupid and probably hateful parents.

I’ve some sympathy for what you say, Thunder, but one significant difference is that floods are not moral agents, whereas people are. Someone who lives on a floodplain only has themselves to blame. Someone who lives in an area where they’re likely to get themselves and their children killed is irresponsible, but, when it comes to the killing itself, blameless.

Do you have anything to add on the above, Thunder? It's an important point. I repectfully ask you acknowledge it.

 

[Thunder]

Do you have anything to add on the above, Thunder? It's an important point. I respectfully ask you acknowledge it.

consciously putting yourself in harm's way..ain't such a great idea.

does it mean you share the blame for your own demise? no.

but I can still ask "wtf were you doing there?????"

 

[Par]

no, they were killed because they were illegal settlers living in illegal settlements.

If their ethnicity had nothing to do with it then we would be forced to conclude that Palestinians have an extraordinary and brutal response to failures to obtain the proper planning permission. Do you really think that’s what it was about? Would the Palestinians hack my neighbour to death for the time he built an extension that obstructed a public thoroughfare?

 

[Par]

consciously putting yourself in harm's way..ain't such a great idea. does it mean you share the blame for your own demise? no. but I can still ask "wtf were you doing there?????"

Agreed. Thanks for addressing.

 

[Thunder]

Would the Palestinians hack my neighbour to death for the time he built an extension that obstructed a public thoroughfare?

#1. this was not done by "the Palestinians", any more than the Tomb of the Patriarchs massacre was done by "the Jews".

#2. does your neighbor live in an illegal settlement built upon someone else's private property?

 

[Par]

consciously putting yourself in harm's way..ain't such a great idea. does it mean you share the blame for your own demise? no. but I can still ask "wtf were you doing there?????

Agreed. Thanks for addressing.

I would gently add, though, that upon hearing of a brutal murder, “What the **** were the victims doing there?” is not the first question one should ask – nor the second, neither.

 

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110313/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel responds to killing of five settlers, with hundreds of new illegal settlements.

....great, now there will be thousands of new illegal settlers put in harm's way. that's smart for ya.

 

[Par]

#1. this was not done by "the Palestinians", any more than the Tomb of the Patriarchs massacre was done by "the Jews".

I plead for charity and ask you assume that by “the Palestinians” I mean “the Palestinian who murdered the family”.

#2. does your neighbor live in an illegal settlement built upon someone else's private property?

Yes, let’s say. He does. Would the Palestinians [who murdered the family] hack him to death because of it -- or would he need to be a Jew for that, do you think?

 

[Thunder]

Yes, let’s say. He does. Would the Palestinians [who murdered the family] hack him to death because of it -- or would he need to be a Jew for that, do you think?

since most Israeli settlers are indeed Jews, its kinda hard to know how Palestinian militants would react to settlers who were Christian, Muslim, Bahai, or Druse.

 

[Skeptic]

Would the Palestinians hack my neighbour to death for the time he built an extension that obstructed a public thoroughfare?

If they would, I supposed it would go to prove nobody is all bad... but seriously, Par, good luck getting Thunder to admit the blindingly obvious, it's not going to work.

 

[Skeptic]

I would gently add, though, that upon hearing of a brutal murder, “What the **** were the victims doing there?” is not the first question one should ask – nor the second, neither.

For Parky, it is -- but only when they're Jews, you see.

 

[angrysoba]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110313/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel responds to killing of five settlers, with hundreds of new illegal settlements.

....great, now there will be thousands of new illegal settlers put in harm's way. that's smart for ya.

Moral agency really is a hard concept for you isn't it?

I would prefer to say that settlers are being needlessly provocative and that it is clear that other people in the area have a tendency to react badly to those of an ethnicity or religion they depise.

But you seem to prefer to couch these expressions in the passive and talk as if settlers are moving to the lip of an active volcano that behaves capriciously and without agency of its own. Do you really think so little of the Palestinians that they are not capable of any response other than murder?

Cue "But whatabout..."

 

[Par]

no, they were killed because they were illegal settlers living in illegal settlements.

If their ethnicity had nothing to do with it then we would be forced to conclude that Palestinians have an extraordinary and brutal response to failures to obtain the proper planning permission. Do you really think that’s what it was about? Would the Palestinians hack my neighbour to death for the time he built an extension that obstructed a public thoroughfare?

since most Israeli settlers are indeed Jews, its kinda hard to know how Palestinian militants would react to settlers who were Christian, Muslim, Bahai, or Druse.

We need to be careful here. Initially you put their murder down to the illegality of their actions. If they were murdered simply because what they were doing was illegal, the culprits must have “an extraordinary and brutal response to failures to obtain the proper planning permission”. In light of what you now say, though, it seems you don’t actually think the illegality was the sole – or even the chief – factor. If you can clarify what you mean, I would be grateful.

 

[Par]

In retrospect, Thunder, perhaps you are conflating the notions of the legal and the moral – essentially using them as synonyms?

 

[Thunder]

If they would, I supposed it would go to prove nobody is all bad... but seriously, Par, good luck getting Thunder to admit the blindingly obvious, it's not going to work.

For Parky, it is -- but only when they're Jews, you see.

I see a trend.

 

[Thunder]

Do you really think so little of the Palestinians that they are not capable of any response other than murder?

I find water balloons to be an honest & thoughtful response to illegal settlement activity, as well.