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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Bikerdruid and Virus seem to me in essential agreement about the main point: Palestinians are like children, they cannot expected to behave like adults, what they say is just excitable nonsense that can be ignored. It's only that one thinks this is a reason to give them nothing and the other that it's a reason to give them nothing.
 
Skeptic said:
Bikerdruid and Virus seem to me in essential agreement about the main point: Palestinians are like children, they cannot expected to behave like adults, what they say is just excitable nonsense that can be ignored. It's only that one thinks this is a reason to give them nothing and the other that it's a reason to give them nothing.
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do not, for even a heartbeat, think that i ascribe to your erroneous assumption.
i do not think that 'palestinians are like children',
and i am not in agreement with virus.
 
bikerdruid said:
do not, for even a heartbeat, think that i ascribe to your erroneous assumption.
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When you were shown how the Hamas constantly says it'll kill all the Jews, you dismissed this as just "middle eastern bragging". Those brown, funny people sure brag a lot, but no reason to take what they say seriously, eh?
 
bikerdruid said:
do not, for even a heartbeat, think that i ascribe to your erroneous assumption.
i do not think that 'palestinians are like children',
and i am not in agreement with virus.
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bikerdruid said:
arab men, and mediterranean men in general, have an incredible sense of bravado and macho grandstanding.
most people probably just think that they are full of **** in these regards, but they present a strong face to the world...[/I]
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When you say things like this in order to excuse Palestinian-Arabs from electing Hamas when they say what they want is genocide, it's hard to see that as anything other than infantilizing them. They talk tough but don't really mean it, it's just bravado...?! That's language you use to describe 12 year-old boys, not an entire culture. When I read that, all I could think was how racist it was.
 
Skeptic said:
DC and Hoverboarder -- the problem is not in what you suggest. The problem is two thirds of Palestinians think the "two state solution" is just part of the staged plan for Israel's destruction, three-fourths believe in Hamas' desire to kill all the Jews when they hide behind trees when the time for revenge comes.

THAT -- the desire to destroy Israel and kill the Jews, openly and popularly expressed and supported -- is what makes peace impossible. Not the particular border arrangements or the "occupation". A Palestinian state would simply be Hamastan-II, another part of the "staged plan" for Israel's destruction.

Ironically four-fifth consider Netanyahu is not a peace partner. Well, with those views of "peace", what did they expect? Imagine someone openly proclaiming he will violently rape and kill any woman who comes close to him, and then complaining it's hard for him to find women for a romantic partnership.
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Well that poll has exactly the opposite results from the poll one year ago, but it definitely cannot be ignored. Some of the other findings in the poll you sited are even more alarming. The fact that 92% of Palestinians said that Jerusalem should be a Palestinian city only, with 3% supported it being a capital of both countries, 4% supporting it being a neutral city, and 1% supporting it staying the Capital of Israel, shows that the Palestinians are millions of miles away from being realistic about the steps needed to have peace and establish their own State. While the poll showed that 69% of Palestinians in the West Bank supported talks while 28% supported violence, and 59-32% for Gaza, as long as they are going to be totally unrealistic about the steps needed for peace than nothing is going to happen.

To be clear, I don't think many Israelis are realistic about the steps needed for peace either, especially Netanyahu, but they do not teach their children about the glories of genocidal massacring the other side like the Palestinians do.

It is unclear what needs to be done, or if anything can be done for the Palestinians to get realistic about peace.

Even if there was peace it is very likely that some groups would use their new State to base attacks on Israel (as Hamas has said that they would do), and that would mean a Palestinian State would be a "Hamastan II" as you called it. Also, Countries like Iran who are using this crisis for their own political advantage will do whatever they can to keep the conflict going as long as they can as they have no desire whatsoever in there being real peace as they would lose an essential political propaganda tool that they use in order to deflect attention away from their own internal oppression problems.

There are definitely some Palestinians who are actively working for peace, but you are right that there is a large portion who do not. It is so ironic that there are so many Palestinian people who demand to have rights, but are totally unrealistic about the steps to get there.

The steps for the Palestinians are definitely not insurmountable, they would just have to be realistic about a few aspects and than they could have their State. However, with such intense propaganda that promotes vitriol hatred and genocidal fantasies instead of promoting ideas of realistic steps needed for the Palestinians to get their own State, there is more than an uphill battle to get the Palestinians to be serious about peace.


Skeptic said:
Well, with those views of "peace", what did they expect? Imagine someone openly proclaiming he will violently rape and kill any woman who comes close to him, and then complaining it's hard for him to find women for a romantic partnership.
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On this point, I just got done watching a video where a female Egyptian lawyer, Nagla Al-Iman, advocated for Arab men to sexually harass Israeli women as a form of "resistance." She also said that if that sexual harassment included rape, than the Israeli women would have no right to make any demands... That's just sickening. What a noble resistance this is. Genocidal, rape supporting, "freedom fighters."

Interviewer said:
Does this include rape?
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Nagla Al-Iman said:
No. Sexual harassment. In my view, the Israeli women do not have any right to respond. The resistance fighters would not initiate such a thing, because their morals are much loftier than that. However, if such a thing did happen to them, the Israeli women have no right to make any demands, because this would put us on equal terms - leave the land so we won't rape you. These two things are equal.
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Skeptic said:
what they say is just excitable nonsense that can be ignored.
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That's not true. I've been arguing my case with frequent references to statements in the Palestinian media and historical statements such as Al-Husseni's "kill the Jews" speech on Nazi-sponsored radio.
 
WildCat said:
They have the right to live in the PA now if they want. Israel certainly isn't stopping them.

And many "refugee camps" are actually in Gaza and the West Bank.

When Palestinians talk about the "right of return", it refers exclusively to the right to live in Israel proper.
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ok, there could be progress here.....what is "Israel proper" can you draw it on a map?
 
If one doesn't want to be seen as a supporter of genocide, murder, terrorism, antisemitism, ect, one shouldn't deem a group of antisemitic, genocidal terrorists "freedom fighters".
 
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The Fool said:
QED...
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Supporting Hamas means you're supporting genocidal, antisemetic terrorists. No way around it. Well, I guess you can pretend that they only say they want to kill Jews but not really mean it because of Arabs' supposed sense of bravdo.

Not that everybody who is more sympathetic to Palestine than I am supports those savages.
 
dtugg said:
Supporting Hamas means you're supporting genocidal, antisemetic terrorists. No way around it. Well, I guess you can pretend that they only say they want to kill Jews but not really mean it because of Arabs' supposed sense of bravdo.

Not that everybody who is more sympathetic to Palestine than I am supports those savages.
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QED...
 
Do you deny that supporting Hamas means that you support antisemetic, genocidal terrorists?
 
dtugg said:
Do you deny that supporting Hamas means that you support antisemetic, genocidal terrorists?
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No...I just find your definition of "supporting Hamas" rather elastic. Yet when finally applied becomes all encompassing.

It gets to the ridiculous stage of people who disagree on How Hamas should be countered get accused of supporting them. I believe that many things proposed by "Israel supporters" actually strengthen Hamas....but I don't see the point of pursuing them with claims of supporting Hamas because they advocate policies that actually strengthen Hamas.

For example....many people refer to Irgun as "freedom fighters" yet they don't support many of their actions.

The constant games of 6 degrees of separation is what drags this thread down...
 
The Fool said:
That appears to be the 67 borders....have you changed your mind about the 67 borders?
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Excuse me? What opinion did I have that you claim I changed my mind on? Be sure to link to my posts that support your claim!

I think the odds of you answering this question are slim to none, but hey I tried! :rolleyes:

eta: And it's really irrelevant, since any agreement will settle the border issue. But the "right of return" specifically means "returning" to Israel, yes? Do you disagree with this The Fool?
 
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The Fool said:
No...I just find your definition of "supporting Hamas" rather elastic. Yet when finally applied becomes all encompassing.

It gets to the ridiculous stage of people who disagree on How Hamas should be countered get accused of supporting them. I believe that many things proposed by "Israel supporters" actually strengthen Hamas....but I don't see the point of pursuing them with claims of supporting Hamas because they advocate policies that actually strengthen Hamas.

For example....many people refer to Irgun as "freedom fighters" yet they don't support many of their actions.

The constant games of 6 degrees of separation is what drags this thread down...
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You want Hamas to have a port, yes?
 
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