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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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CM is once again trying to suggest that zie is a rough tough Navy Walrus with education, using terms which insofar as they might be true (I am only accepting this for the sake of making this point) points to zie having been at best a desk jockey. PhibPac == Amphibious Forces, Pacific Theater -- more specifically the administrative structure thereof. What the *real* soldiers aptly call REMFs, for the most part. Systems Programmer (he used to use "Engineer", until he got schooled) == entry level network administration, more of a gofer for the guys that really work with the Big Iron.
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Another fairy tale? I never used the term engineer. How do you make crap like that up?

My point was that I never wrote much outside of IT after I left the Navy and writing about the Holocaust in a publication should be left to someone with better skills.

You know, I've been going to posts for over 30 years and I've never heard REMFs. In fact, other than joshing between the services, I never heard a Vet put down another serviceman or group of servicemen.
 
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This is why his "mockery" of Dawidowicz's reference to the 1959 Soviet census stood out as such a red flag to me.

You have yet to explain what the 1959 Soviet census was suppose to represent that I failed to understand.
 
Another fairy tale? I never used the term engineer. How do you make crap like that up?
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I didn't, but you did.

Note that I offer exactly as much documentation of this as you have of any of your claims, collectively, in your entire posting history here.
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My point was that I never wrote much outside of IT after I left the Navy and writing about the Holocaust in a publication should be left to someone with better skills.
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So, you acknowledge Holocaust scholars have better skills in history that you do.

And this qualifies you to continually attack those skills and be taken seriously ... how?
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You know, I've been going to posts for over 30 years and I've never heard REMFs. In fact, other than joshing between the services, I never heard a Vet put down another serviceman or group of servicemen.
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Yet another indication of both your lack of actual front-line service and education. .3 seconds on Google would demonstrate both the reality of that term and it's etymology and understanding by those who coined the term: those who didn't just sit behind a desk. That you were so isolated from the guys actually doing the fighting as to never have heard the term says a *lot* about your trying to ride their coattails to credibility.

Maybe you should talk to the grunts that also coined such terms as Pogue, Wog, my favourite: Toc-roach, or I understand Fobbit has recently become fashionable. Go down to the local VFW and (assuming they let you in) see what *they* have to say about your Holocaust denial -- but tell me what hospital you're likely to end up in first, so I can send a potted plant with an "I told you so" balloon.
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You have yet to explain what the 1959 Soviet census was suppose to represent that I failed to understand.
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As if your posts suggest that your failure, when it's already been pointed out to you, would be resolved by repetition...
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What's even more amusing is that DNPRM has, in each and every case, had to wait until *real* scholars have done the work, and then crowed "I told you so!"

I defy you, as I have done many times on similar subjects, to cite so much as *one* denier, before she was denounced by Holocaust scholars, who had written even a single sentence deconstructing Zisblatt.

And then, after it was already exposed, they complain that Holocaust scholars aren't doing enough to expose the lie.

Seriously: what more are you expecting than has been done? Is every student of history in the entire world expected to spend every waking moment continually denouncing her -- and why does this only apply to those scholars? Where is a single word from you about Saggs' or CM's lies, or from them about yours?
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Goodness gracious great balls of fire! You want evidence of a denier denouncing Zisblatt before a "scholar" got to her? Read Joachim Neander's "expose" on the holocaustcontroversies blog. He's the holocaust scholar who denounced Zisblatt. Neander refers to work done by Eric Hunt. Eric Hunt is the denier who got to Zisblatt first. Didn't you even see somebody, I forget who, probably Nick or Lemmy, taking me to task for saying that Neander used Hunt's work without acknowledgement? (which, btw, is a dressing down I totally deserved because what I wrote earlier was completely unfair to Neander. I know Neander referenced Eric Hunt. I didn't intend to imply that Neander didn't acknowledge Eric Hunt. But when I wrote was poorly written and it sure sounded like that's what I meant.) How could you miss THAT?!

As far as what I expect people to do about Zisblatt? I would expect Irene Zisblatt's public appearances to receive the same response that public appearances by David Irving or Norman Finkelstein receive by the same people. If they got time to stalk Irving and Finkelstein, they can stalk Zisblatt just as easily.
 
One already has, remember this is what we have been discussing for the last 3 pages



Sure and the kids would then go to Wikipedia and find nothing because Team Denier was too lazy to write the simplest of articles



So you want Spielberg to send 1/10th of his award back? You do realize Zisblatt is not the only person interviewed. Or are you disputing all the narratives covered by the documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7tHB8tD34s
Paul Parks was also a fabricator. About 35 and 41 minutes in.
 
You want evidence of a denier denouncing Zisblatt before a "scholar" got to her? Read Joachim Neander's "expose" on the holocaustcontroversies blog. He's the holocaust scholar who denounced Zisblatt. Neander refers to work done by Eric Hunt.
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And starts that section of the article:

After having written the above, which restricts itself deliberately to an analysis of Mrs. Zisblatt's published memoir, I began to study the documents Holocaust denier Eric Hunt.
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Emphasis mine.


Seriously, dude: read the sources before you try to quote mine.
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The guy actually speaks/spoke of his fabrications on the Holocaust circuit.

He isn't in Wiki either.

55 minutes in more lies.
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Speaking of lies, when are you going to document a single one on THHP, and why aren't you whining about Saggs' site?.
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What is the name of one credible Jewish eyewitness to the holohoax?


What is the name of one credible eyewitness to this fantastical worldwide Jewish conspiracy which controls the media, academia, and everything else that you are so fond of saying exists ?


It's fascinating to see the doublethink Saggy engages in. A conspiracy by the Nazis to eradicate the Jews? Preposterous! Absurd on its face! Impossible on practical grounds alone! And yet a global conspiracy involving a cabal of Jews which controls media across the world, academia across the world, and pretty much everything else across the world, no, that is not preposterous. That is not absurd on its face. That is not impossible on practical grounds alone.

If it weren't so sad and pathetic a doublethink of such grand extent would be hilarious.
 
So you want Spielberg to send 1/10th of his award back? You do realize Zisblatt is not the only person interviewed. Or are you disputing all the narratives covered by the documentary
What these guys fail to acknowledge is that - I am in a discussion about this in another context overnight - 10s of 1000s of testimonies, memoirs, interrogations, taped interviews, and other statements, not just one or five, exist in various archives and libraries. And that it is to be expected that some are, being charitable, just not right. Without doubt, some will be fraudulent, some will be all mixed up, some will be crankery.

These 10s of 1000s of retrospective statements of various types from different individuals exist along documents, diaries, press articles, appointment books, memos, reports, forensic evidence, etc.

The way to figure out which few are "not right," unfortunately, is do the hard work of reading many, many sources out of all this material; comparing them; thinking about them; and making decisions about how they fit together, if they do, and what they demonstrate. That is what historians, which Clayton admittedly is not good at being, do. For example, that is what Nick Terry does. Mostly, historians use all this material to work out the history - not to expose cranks and charlatans.

Clayton's hyperventilation on this topic is only somewhat amusing. It would be as though someone denounced every historian of the American war against Vietnam for not being on the TV talk shows and all over the Web deconstructing and exposing the fake veterans and their false stories. In the real world, the question would be, "And why should they do that, when they are busy with the '10s of 1000s' of documents, newspaper articles, statements, etc.?" But Clayton sees no value in spending effort to get the history right, so to speak, and as he says lacks the proper skills to do so.
 
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My point was that I never wrote much outside of IT after I left the Navy and writing about the Holocaust in a publication should be left to someone with better skills.
Look, if you can't figure out how to make a case for what you think happened, maybe it is time to question what you think happened.
 
Wiki isn't a forum.
So what? Wikipedia is open to anyone to join - and to create or edit articles. For example, I contributed to articles on auto racing and the article on Rufus Thomas - someone didn't like the sourcing for my contributions to the Rufus Thomas article (personal discussions I had with Mr Thomas) and wiped out everything I added - about 2-3 years after I'd made my edits. That's how Wiki works. You were a systems what?
 
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If the answer you gave is the final answer, Auschwitz was not officially acknowledged to have been significantly modified until the 1980s, any modification done under the communist regime isn't relevant, and the first time researchers from the western side of the iron curtain were able to access the site independent of the communist authorities was 1988. And this in no way limits the historiography of Auschwitz. If that's what you believe, you should at least try to say it in a way that doesn't sound as pathetic as the way I say it.

But if that's your answer or simply don't like Auschwitz anymore, let's talk about the rest of Europe that ended up in Soviet hands. When did the west gain access to those regions in the east that are important to the holocaust story? For example, when were westerners allowed to physically inspect the sites where the EG had been operating? How much of the documentary evidence we have for the EG was provided to western scholars by the Soviets and how much of it was discovered by researchers on the western side of the iron curtain independent of the Soviets?

These are the more interesting questions.

You are still arm-flapping. It is rather telling that you are virtually incapable of writing a post without asking endless questions. If you have a serious case to make, please state it, remembering to back up your assertions and check the facts. If you think that site access is some kind of major issue, please explain why it matters. In previous posts you reacted like a scalded cat when asked to explain the hoax, but what we have here is conspiracy lite, a bunch of extremely vague insinuations that don't actually go anywhere, especially not if they're reduced to 'oh the East Bloc is sinister'.

I cannot promise that this will answer all your questions, but I previously wrote a short essay about the provenance of the Einsatzgruppen reports which is on the Holocaust History Project website.

Issues of provenance and investigation become increasingly moot after 1949 or so, for the simple reason that so much was investigated and discovered by that date. That's why the Holocaust became a historical fact and an accepted part of reality in the 1940s.

It's precisely because there were separate but parallel investigative endeavours on both sides of the Iron Curtain that we can be quite confident there was no grand-scale fabrication.

The Western allies had most of the documents and a lot of the witnesses and the perpetrators, in addition to accessing the sites which fell on their side of the Iron Curtain (eg Hartheim, Mauthausen - places with gas chambers). Poland and the Soviet Union had the physical sites, a lot of documents, and a great many witnesses. Every single country in Europe which had been occupied by the Nazis was running an investigation of some kind into what had happened during the war. The results matched, and they were independent of each other. Some of the results were publicised, and quite a lot not, as we see with the Soviet Extraordinary Commission reports. The varying degrees of publicity means we can look back and find other examples of independent corroboration which were not known in the 1940s, when the world decided that the Nazis had indeed mass-murdered the Jews of Europe.

Just as there is the problem to explain what really happened to the Jews from 1942-45, you also have the problem of explaining the investigations of 1945-49, before you even get to the issues you think are oh-so-crucial. Droning on about when-did-the-west-get-to-see-the-crematorium has completely missed the bus by several decades.

But something you wrote above piqued my curiousity: Why do we have this documentation that clearly refers to the Nazi's intentional extermination of the Jews and precisely records the numbers of Jews, broken down by sex and age, who were shot but we don't have similar documentation for those Jews who were gassed? I understand that the exact policy and the methods used to accomplish the goal of total extermination of the Jewish population evolved over time. But shooting and gassing were carried out in parallel through 1942 and 1943. In the Nazi mind, shooting and gassing were simply methods that led to the same result, dead people. Why track one and not the other?

I'm quite sure I've made points about this to you before. There were a very large number of units involved in mass shootings. Not all of their reports survive, but a significant number do. We don't have anything like the Jaeger report for any of the other 15 Sonder- and Einsatzkommandos, with that level of detail. We have more sporadically detailed reports breaking down victims by sex and age. It isn't very likely that all of the units would have headcounted their victims as precisely as EK 3. Nor is it very likely that such headcounts would survive for the extermination camps, given the described conditions upon arrival at many of them.

There were really only five 'big' extermination camps, of which four were run by company-sized units. You're talking about more than 100 company sized units operating in 1941 in the Soviet Union killing Jews; and we have war diaries for a couple of them at best. It's a matter of simple common-sense to realise that more documentation for the mass shootings ought to survive than would be the case for five extermination camps, three of which were entirely shut down in 1943.

Before we go on: do you accept that common sense or not? If not why not?

That said, we do have quite a bit of information which is comparable. Deportation lists help calculate age and gender breakdowns. Not only are they available for western and central Europe, but there is a lot of similiar data from the Lodz ghetto relevant to Chelmno, in addition to that deeply inconvenient document from June 1942 which states that 97,000 had been processed in gas vans.

There are also four Jaeger-like reports on the reception of transports to Auschwitz, breaking down the number of men, women and children deported, the number of men and women registered, and the number who were subjected to special treatment or were 'specially accomodated'. Four survive, whereas there were hundreds of transports to Auschwitz. The obvious conclusion is that the rest were lost because the SS destroyed them, and overlooked the four that survive in another department's files.

We can document the fact of arrival at Auschwitz of many more transports with their full complements of deportees. BdS Frankreich sent a stream of telexes saying a transport is on its way with 1112 or 1002 Jews from Drancy and will arrive in Auschwitz on x day. The transport lists for France are preserved, so we have the age breakdowns. The numbers of men and women registered at Auschwitz from those transports are known from a master list of registration numbers. This is confirmed by several hundred survivors who carried the relevant tattoo numbers on their arms until they died. It is utterly irrefutable that those transports arrived in Auschwitz, based on all the sources.

And then there are the rather precise contingent who don't get registered.

You know all this, or you really ought to by now; what is your point?
 
I wonder if Dogzilla will provide evidence that the Soviet Union needed to fabricate anything. Because the catch with that gamble is this: Why do anything when the nazis already committed the crimes they are accused of and left evidence?
 
Clayton's hyperventilation on this topic is only somewhat amusing. It would be as though someone denounced every historian of the American war against Vietnam for not being on the TV talk shows and all over the Web deconstructing and exposing the fake veterans and their false stories. In the real world, the question would be, "And why should they do that, when they are busy with the '10s of 1000s' of documents, newspaper articles, statements, etc.?" But Clayton sees no value in spending effort to get the history right, so to speak, and as he says lacks the proper skills to do so.

Clayton also does not seem to understand the role amateurs play in the research and compilation of history. There are not that many professionals in the field, and those that are there have to deliver bang for buck.

In our local area we have 1 historian attached to our local college and an army of volunteers filtering through a 150 years of newspapers trying to piece the history of the area together.

Should that historian sit cutting mounting and preserving news articles, or should he spend his valuable time teaching us how to preserve and archive so he can concentrate on understanding the information we are producing.

And why do this, well we have uncovered a number of items that seem to contradict the accepted history of the area, including the existence of a railway line no one knew existed. Clearly these events are nowhere near as Earth shattering as the holocaust but the concept remains valid

Every now and then we do find that Earth shattering discovery. Lost for 70 years was a bundle of original letters between members of my community and relatives in Russia suffering dreadfully through the famines of the 20's and 30's

No professional had the time to go through a non descript box in the hope of finding anything useful. But he had trained a volunteer to do it, and they recognize the value of the information, and thus added to not only our communities history, but world history
 
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But that's not what the evidence shows

Nor is it a matter of "belief"

Nor even anywhere close to what Mr. Terry said

So as it stands we just have your pathetic blather which is every bit as pathetic as, well, your blather.
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Why don't you paraphrase what Dr. Terry said in response to Saggy's question?
 
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