Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

The confusion here is clearly mine. I mentioned the Black Book and linked to The Complete Black Book of Russian Jewry, compiled by Ilya Ehrenburg & Vasily Grossman. Saggy seems to have quoted from a book I haven't read but which has a somewhat similar title, so, therefore, of course, that other book is used to impugn the source I mentioned. Right? A Google Internet search shows a passage similar to the one Saggy quoted in The Black Book of Polish Jewry (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...a=X&ei=X4z3Tpv4AoWlgweDxsirCQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA). Is there any reason why Saggy should be expected to keep the two books straight? Should I not have included a map of Eastern Europe with my post? Shouldn't deniers be permitted to use anything they want - including dishonesty like the insinuation one member made that the Ereignismeldungen were in Soviet hands or the doctoring of a statement of Peter Longerich by this same member? And shouldn't all deniers turn a blind eye to such errors and untruths, leaving them unremarked and uncorrected?

 

[TSR]

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And isn't it coincidental that Mondial shows up after a major hiatus, right after hraka boi gets banned?
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[TSR]

If that was the first book you read, you should have realized it was a hoax, a collection of absurd lies, from the start ..... here is one of many such absurdities from the Black Book....

"In trucks meant to hold 20 the Germans put 80. Quicklime was placed on the floor about 10 inches deep. The doors were sealed hermetically. These people had to pass their water - that would start the lime cooking. Gas and fumes came up and choked them to death".

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Do tell us: what, exactly, is "absurd" about this passage?
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[tsig]

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And isn't it coincidental that Mondial shows up after a major hiatus, right after hraka boi gets banned?
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Some things come in pairs.

 

[TSR]

Some things come in pairs.

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But in IME, mostly in triads. < waits, and watches >
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[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
If that was the first book you read, you should have realized it was a hoax, a collection of absurd lies, from the start ..... here is one of many such absurdities from the Black Book....

"In trucks meant to hold 20 the Germans put 80. Quicklime was placed on the floor about 10 inches deep. The doors were sealed hermetically. These people had to pass their water - that would start the lime cooking. Gas and fumes came up and choked them to death".

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Do tell us: what, exactly, is "absurd" about this passage?
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It's one of many conjured up ritual executions. Hermetically sealed trucks?

 

[TSR]

It's one of many conjured up ritual executions. Hermetically sealed trucks?

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And of course, this person had the test equipment to determine no leaks at all...

But even if they had, are you saying that the back of a truck cannot be, under any circumstances whatever, made air tight?
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[LemmyCaution]

It's one of many conjured up ritual executions. Hermetically sealed trucks?

Leaving aside your continued assertion of your parochialism and lack of life experience, do you concur that Saggy tried dismissing a comment of mine by quoting from a work I did not mention and passing it off as the one I'd mentioned? What I really mean, is why do you guys play such games?

 

[Clayton Moore]

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And of course, this person had the test equipment to determine no leaks at all...

But even if they had, are you saying that the back of a truck cannot be, under any circumstances whatever, made air tight?
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No. I'm saying it's idiotic to think the Germans would take a vehicle out of service for an undetermined amount of time. What were the guards doing while waiting for the people to urinate? How would the guards know when all the people were dead? Were the people naked? If not the urine would be absorbed by their clothes.

 

[Walter Ego]

You play with matches you get burnt. Why is it people think Jews accrued enormous wealth without screwing anyone?

I haven't been following this thread closely of late but is this the first outright admission from the masked man that he is an honest-to-god anti-semite or did he just slip up here?

He admits the Jews got "burnt" and deserved what they got but I assume he is arguing that the "burning" stopped short of systematic annihilation.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I haven't been following this thread closely of late but is this the first outright admission from the masked man that he is an honest-to-god anti-semite or did he just slip up here?

He admits the Jews got "burnt" and deserved what they got but I assume he is arguing that the "burning" stopped short of systematic annihilation.

It's history. People don't get along.

 

[MG1962]

No. I'm saying it's idiotic to think the Germans would take a vehicle out of service for an undetermined amount of time. What were the guards doing while waiting for the people to urinate? How would the guards know when all the people were dead? Were the people naked? If not the urine would be absorbed by their clothes.

Well as of right now we are still waiting for saggy to tell us where he got the quote from because it is definitely not in the book he is claiming it is

 

[Saggy]

Care to tell me what page you are quoting?

I have the book, and found the quote a few weeks ago when I opened it at at random, and I posted it since quicklime was the current topic of the thread. The quote is accurate, but I don't know the page # and I ain't gonna try to find it.

Get it. It's a classic ! You'll be able to find plenty of completely absurd quotes on your own.

 

[MG1962]

I have the book, and found the quote a few weeks ago when I opened it at at random, and I posted it since quicklime was the current topic of the thread. The quote is accurate, but I don't know the page # and I ain't gonna try to find it.

Get it. It's a classic ! You'll be able to find plenty of completely absurd quotes on your own.

I don't believe you, the word quicklime does not appear anywhere in the text.

 

[TSR]

No. I'm saying it's idiotic to think the Germans would take a vehicle out of service for an undetermined amount of time. What were the guards doing while waiting for the people to urinate? How would the guards know when all the people were dead? Were the people naked? If not the urine would be absorbed by their clothes.

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Your Nazi heroes made a *lot* of choices that were idiotic.

Like opening a two front war to begin with.

Like sending troops to Moscow late in the season with no winter gear.

Like sinking all those merchant and passenger vessels you've been ignoring in the other thread.

To answer your questions: "What do guards do, 99% of the time?" "Did it matter if they were *all* dead?" And as much as my inclination is to defer to you in the matter of peeing in one's pants, where you are clearly more experienced than I, "I have no idea since no useful citation has even been provided -- except that this has yet to be impeached except by a lying denier saying 'I don't believe it'."
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[LemmyCaution]

I have the book, and found the quote a few weeks ago when I opened it at at random, and I posted it since quicklime was the current topic of the thread. The quote is accurate, but I don't know the page # and I ain't gonna try to find it.

Get it. It's a classic ! You'll be able to find plenty of completely absurd quotes on your own.

I have already posted that Saggy's quotation is not from the book I mentioned, The Complete Black Book of Russian Jewry. It might be from a different book, The Black Book of Polish Jewry. First of all, Poland and Russia, although neighboring countries, are not actually the same place, nor is the Ehrenburg/Grossman book on Russia, the one that I read and mentioned, the same as the book on Poland that Web searches suggest Saggy quoted from to challenge my post.

Second, I haven't been able to find the quotation except posted by deniers on the Web. For example, Scott Smith on Axis History Forum in 2003 quoted this same bit from another poster, citing The Black Book of Polish Jewry, p 280 but not naming the witness who provided the statement.

Saggy says he opened the book (on Poland I presume) at random and found the quotation he posted. The quotation, as noted, has nothing to do with the book I mentioned, but that didn't stop him from trying to use it to cast doubt on what I had written about the open-air shootings and their appearance in Holocaust research.

Like other deniers, Saggy refuses to give a citation, in this case for this quotation, which leads me to conclude that he doesn't own the book - as he didn't know its title either - and found this quotation on the Web. It was quoted, for example, last June over at RODOH by the JREF poster who lied about Peter Longerich and the Ereignismeldungen; this post at RODOH cited testimony of Abe Furmanski in a deposition to the US Department of the Interior, not the Black Book of Polish Jewry, as the source for the quotation. The revisionist Website The Holocaust Historiography Project carries the quotation, citing pp 379-380 of The Black Book of Polish Jewry for Furmanski's deposition (a slight twist on Scott Smith's AHF post from 2003).

I suggest extreme caution when deniers refuse to give citations, because they have shown that they have no compunction about doctoring quotations and misdating or otherwise playing games with sources.

I have no idea if The Black Book of Polish Jewry actually contains the quotation posted by Saggy as the text of the book does not appear online, at least when I search for it, and I don't own it. From the Websites carrying this quotation, it seems to have made its rounds among deniers.

 

[A'isha]

All the quotations on revisionist websites about this appear to originate with Carlos W. Porter's 1988 book "Made in Russia: the Holocaust". That book apparently contained select photocopied pages from what Porter said was

SELECTED LIES FROM THE “BLACK BOOK”

PUBLISHED BY THE JEWISH BLACK BOOK COMMITTEE, 1946

World Jewish Congress, New York
Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, Moscow
Vaad Leumi (Jewish National Council of Palestine, Jerusalem)
American Committee of Jewish Writers, Artists and Scientists, New York.

Inside cover blurb: “The entire manuscript of THE BLACK BOOK was submitted to the juridical authorities of the United Nations War Crimes Commission meeting at Nuremberg, Germany, as evidence of the crimes committed by the Nazis against the Jewish people.”

Specifically, those photocopied pages were in Appendix III, "The Electrical-Frying-Steaming-Air-pumping-Quicklime-Trapdoor-Gas Chambers (1946)", which can be found complete with the source photocopies at Porter's website here (warning: vile cesspool of racism, anti-Semitism, and neo-Nazi sympathies).

I don't know what book those original photocopies came from - the above info is the only title and author cite I could find, and the pages themselves only give page numbers, a plain title of "The Black Book", and on one page the chapter or section header "Annihilation".

The page that Saggy's quote itself came from appears to be in the middle of a discussion of the Jews of France.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/19/us/red-cross-admits-knowing-of-the-holocaust-during-the-war.html

The Red Cross has long acknowledged its awareness of the treatment of Jews during World War II, maintaining that if it had disclosed what it knew, it would have lost its ability to inspect prisoner of war camps on both sides of the front.

What would have been the point of inspecting prisoner of war camps if you didn't report thousands of people being killed in gas chambers, burning pits, gas vans, and quicklime trucks every day?

 

[MG1962]

What would have been the point of inspecting prisoner of war camps if you didn't report thousands of people being killed in gas chambers, burning pits, gas vans, and quicklime trucks every day?

50% of something is better than 100% of nothing

 

[Clayton Moore]

50% of something is better than 100% of nothing

That sounds Paternoish.