Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Dogzilla]

The willful ignorance never ceases to astound. The Red Cross and other organizations spent years after the war helping surviving family members locate one another. That's how much of my family ended up in the US in the 40s and 50s - the survivors still in Eastern Europe were put in touch with the remnants that had made it elsewhere. If there were anybody else still in Poland or Russia, they must have tried very hard not to be found. Highly unlikely, given that family would be the only support system anyone had left at that point.

Somehow, Dogzilla and his ilk would have us believe, all those untold millions of displaced Jews simply didn't care that their relatives and friends were looking for them, or that anyone would think something bad had happened if they just did nothing for the next few decades and pretended everything was hunky-dory.

For crying out loud, Israel Radio still has a daily call-in show to help try reuniting family and friends from the WWII era. Every last shred of information on people is submitted and broadcast in the hope that somebody might remember something, maybe make a connection. Any successful reunion - there have been a few over the last thirty (IIRC) years that the program has run - is trumpeted precisely because of its rarity.

But that couldn't be, could it Dogzilla? Much more reasonable to believe that all those places, "anywhere that has a large Jewish population," in your words, are just huddled masses of subhumanity, not communities with actual, caring people in them. You know, because mishpocha isn't important to yidden or anything.

Clayton Moore suggests that maybe the mass of missing Jews went to wherever it is he said they went. And the response is the typical insults and put downs: "LOL. That's all we need to say is LOL. Because LOL is the answer. Only an ignorant JOO hater could think they went somewhere else. Face palm. Cartoon of face palm. Picture of animal covering his eyes identified as face palm. yada yada." And now you pop in and tell us that's exactly what happened to 'much of your family', in your words.

LOL!

 

[Moss]

Evasive action by Dogzilla noted. Why is it so hard for you to go look for those people? Your claims, your legwork. How hard is that to understand?

 

[Robrob]

Clayton Moore suggests that maybe the mass of missing Jews went to wherever it is he said they went. And the response is the typical insults and put downs: "LOL. That's all we need to say is LOL. Because LOL is the answer. Only an ignorant JOO hater could think they went somewhere else. Face palm. Cartoon of face palm. Picture of animal covering his eyes identified as face palm. yada yada." And now you pop in and tell us that's exactly what happened to 'much of your family', in your words. LOL!

LOL, indeed. What he actually said was:

The Red Cross and other organizations spent years after the war helping surviving family members locate one another. That's how much of my family ended up in the US in the 40s and 50s - the survivors still in Eastern Europe were put in touch with the remnants that had made it elsewhere.

Clayton Moore pretends 6 million people simply moved and left no forwarding address. He received deserved ridicule. You chimed in demonstrating you:

1) Didn't understand what was posted.

2) Were lying to cover for a fellow Anti-Semite.

Feel free to pick one or both.

Oh, and LOL!

 

[Dogzilla]

Evasive action by Dogzilla noted. Why is it so hard for you to go look for those people? Your claims, your legwork. How hard is that to understand?

I'll tell you what. You go and find all the Japanese Americans the US government exterminated after Pearl Harbor and I'll go find your missing Jews.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Well, how about we start at the last place they were seen - Treblinka.

I see. So who was the last persons to see them there Little Grey Rabbit? Please state their names and quote them exactly.

 

[David Swidler]

I love how he assumes they went to Treblinka. You can't go anywhere once you've been machine-gunned into a mass grave in Lithuania, but hey, let's go look in Treblinka.

 

[Robrob]

Evasive action by Dogzilla noted. Why is it so hard for you to go look for those people? Your claims, your legwork. How hard is that to understand?

I'll tell you what. You go and find all the Japanese Americans the US government exterminated after Pearl Harbor and I'll go find your missing Jews.

Someone isn't quite getting the concept.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I love how he assumes they went to Treblinka. You can't go anywhere once you've been machine-gunned into a mass grave in Lithuania, but hey, let's go look in Treblinka.

I say old chum, you are throwing in the towel pretty quickly over Treblinka.

 

[David Swidler]

I say old chum, you are throwing in the towel pretty quickly over Treblinka.

And thank you for treating the mass murder of my family so blithely. It says quite a bit about your character.

 

[MG1962]

Clayton Moore suggests that maybe the mass of missing Jews went to wherever it is he said they went. And the response is the typical insults and put downs: "LOL. That's all we need to say is LOL. Because LOL is the answer. Only an ignorant JOO hater could think they went somewhere else. Face palm. Cartoon of face palm. Picture of animal covering his eyes identified as face palm. yada yada." And now you pop in and tell us that's exactly what happened to 'much of your family', in your words.

LOL!

Sorry after a 190 pages of Clayton producing no evidence to back up ANY claim, there really is nothing left

Sure feel free to play the injured holier than than thou card. Results will stay the same

LOL

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Well, how about we start at the last place they were seen - Treblinka.

I see. So who was the last persons to see them there, Little Grey Rabbit? Please state their names and quote them exactly.

You have attempted to avoid this question. I ask again. List the names of the persons who last saw the victims at Treblinka II and quote them exactly as to what they saw.

 

[Dogzilla]

I love how he assumes they went to Treblinka. You can't go anywhere once you've been machine-gunned into a mass grave in Lithuania, but hey, let's go look in Treblinka.

OK. Then let's go look at the mass graves in Lithuania. But that's going to be a little tougher. With Treblinka, we have a very small, well defined area in which to search for graves that once held more bodies than any other mass grave in history, AFAIK. We could start looking in the morning and be done in time for high tea.

But finding mass graves in Lithuania won't do anything to support the Treblinka story. And evidence for Treblinka wouldn't prove Zyklon B was used in the gas chambers at Auschwitz as part of an intentional plan to kill all the Jews in the world or that nobody was murdered using special electrical appliances at Belsen.

The holocaust isn't a single unified event that can be proven by evidence for one tiny part of it. If you want to start with mass graves in Lithuania, be my guest. Maybe the great aunt of the dentist who lived next door to the kid who delivered pizza to Pesye Schloss can give you a first hand account of where to look.

 

[Dogzilla]

Someone isn't quite getting the concept.

You're right. So let me try to explain it to you. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the people and government of the United States decided anybody with Japanese ancestry, both citizen and non-citizen, was a danger to the country. All Japanese Americans on the West Coast were eventually rounded up, forced to abandon all their possessions that they couldn't carry on their backs, packed into cattle cars, and concentrated in very small camps in the interior of the country. Short wave radios and cameras had been confiscated from the Japanese and the government didn't allow photographs to be taken of the round ups. What did the government have to hide? American citizens and government officials used words like "deporting" as euphemism for exterminating the Japanese. Wild rumors about bizarre methods of execution involving bats and atomic fission sometimes were heard but the government never confirmed anything. There aren't any official US documents discussing the extermination policy. The camps in the east where the exterminations took place don't yield any evidence that the exterminations took place. Very few people have even looked for physical evidence of extermination and those who have haven't found any. At the end of the war, very few Japanese Americans could be found where they had been prior to the war. Hundreds of thousands never returned. The conclusion: the United States official policy was the extermination of the Japanese and only a bigot would ask for evidence of that.

If you want to prove otherwise, you need to find all the missing Japanese Americans.

 

[eerok]

Dogzilla, we know where the victims of the Holocaust went, because it's been well-documented. What we don't know is what you'll try to pass off as evidence that they went somewhere else, because you've yet to present any.

 

[Dogzilla]

You have attempted to avoid this question. I ask again. List the names of the persons who last saw the victims at Treblinka II and quote them exactly as to what they saw.

OK, so you don't believe and you can't prove that a whole bunch of Jews were sent to Treblinka and that's the last anybody has heard of them? The lack of a trail for what happened to the Jews after they were sent to Treblinka is the closest thing you guys have for anything you could call evidence that something untoward happened to them. So if you don't think they were even sent to Treblinka, why do you insist they were murdered there?

 

[Border Reiver]

You're right. So let me try to explain it to you. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the people and government of the United States decided anybody with Japanese ancestry, both citizen and non-citizen, was a danger to the country. All Japanese Americans on the West Coast were eventually rounded up, forced to abandon all their possessions that they couldn't carry on their backs, packed into cattle cars, and concentrated in very small camps in the interior of the country. Short wave radios and cameras had been confiscated from the Japanese and the government didn't allow photographs to be taken of the round ups. What did the government have to hide? American citizens and government officials used words like "deporting" as euphemism for exterminating the Japanese. Wild rumors about bizarre methods of execution involving bats and atomic fission sometimes were heard but the government never confirmed anything. There aren't any official US documents discussing the extermination policy. The camps in the east where the exterminations took place don't yield any evidence that the exterminations took place. Very few people have even looked for physical evidence of extermination and those who have haven't found any. At the end of the war, very few Japanese Americans could be found where they had been prior to the war. Hundreds of thousands never returned. The conclusion: the United States official policy was the extermination of the Japanese and only a bigot would ask for evidence of that.

If you want to prove otherwise, you need to find all the missing Japanese Americans.

You mean the Japanese Americans that were deported as a part of a misguided and ill-intentioned method of caving into popular fears? This one? The one public recognized by the US government? The one for which the US government paid (admittedly small) compensation? The one where you can follow the stats on births and deaths?

Or do you mean the Canadian version? where similar information can be publically obtained?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I say old chum, you are throwing in the towel pretty quickly over Treblinka.

I think not. It is you, in fact, to garner a cheap laugh and try to score a rhetorical point, who've thrown in the towel. This should be your opportunity to tell us about the fate of Jews from across Europe. Why, just on this thread recently we've dicussed Vilna and Warsaw.

In Vilna, at war's end a handful of Jews were left in the city; over some months, ex-partisans and some others (IIRC a couple thousand Jews) wound up back in the city. So there is a difference between the number living in Vilna in, say, June 1941 and this couple, few thousand. This difference is accounted for in diaries, eyewitness accounts, German documents, memoirs, excavations, newspaper articles, etc., which we've dicussed. Most of the difference can be shown through this diverse evidence to have been Jews who "went to" Ponar, where they were murdered. Not all - but most. Some fled the city, some joined partisan groups, some were sent to labor camps in Estonia, and some fled at the outset of the war. In this thread, you will find attempts to quantify some of these numbers - we stopped at December 1941 in our earlier discussion, so left out the partisans and Estonia contingents. What is your non-flippant, complete answer to what accounts for the difference between June 1941's Jewish population in Vilna and its Jewish population in 1945? And your explanation of how you know what you argue?

Same for Warsaw, only here we have to account for much larger numbers and starvation/disease played a larger role in reducing the city's Jewish population than in Vilna. What is your accounting for the size of the postwar population of Jews in Warsaw versus the city's Jewish population in, say, March 1942? And how do you know?

 

[LemmyCaution]

The holocaust isn't a single unified event that can be proven by evidence for one tiny part of it. If you want to start with mass graves in Lithuania, be my guest. Maybe the great aunt of the dentist who lived next door to the kid who delivered pizza to Pesye Schloss can give you a first hand account of where to look.

So flippancy and trivialization are part of today's chorus of bold revisionists?

Which reminds me, how are you coming with answers to the questions you've been asked about the fate of Vilna's Jews and how you view the totality of sources on the murders at Ponar in fall 1941? It's easy to make poor jokes about one of the victims, much more difficult to deal with her testimony; that of Trojak and Aharonwicz and Katz, Jaeger's report; evidence found at the killing site; press reports; Kruk's diary and other diaries and memoirs.

You never did even start to address the totality of evidence for just one part of a continent-wide, multi-year extermination campaign; in a first year history class you'd score a fail, and yet you think it's time to start celebrate your grade by mocking the victims you deny. Nice.

 

[Moss]

You're right. So let me try to explain it to you. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the people and government of the United States decided anybody with Japanese ancestry, both citizen and non-citizen, was a danger to the country. All Japanese Americans on the West Coast were eventually rounded up, forced to abandon all their possessions that they couldn't carry on their backs, packed into cattle cars, and concentrated in very small camps in the interior of the country. Short wave radios and cameras had been confiscated from the Japanese and the government didn't allow photographs to be taken of the round ups. What did the government have to hide? American citizens and government officials used words like "deporting" as euphemism for exterminating the Japanese. Wild rumors about bizarre methods of execution involving bats and atomic fission sometimes were heard but the government never confirmed anything. There aren't any official US documents discussing the extermination policy. The camps in the east where the exterminations took place don't yield any evidence that the exterminations took place. Very few people have even looked for physical evidence of extermination and those who have haven't found any. At the end of the war, very few Japanese Americans could be found where they had been prior to the war. Hundreds of thousands never returned. The conclusion: the United States official policy was the extermination of the Japanese and only a bigot would ask for evidence of that.

If you want to prove otherwise, you need to find all the missing Japanese Americans.

Are you done with your straw men? Why are you unable to provide anything about those people? Look above: If those people went anywhere, there would have been some echo. There is none.
You can try to evade and spin and dissemble all you want: Your claim is those people survived and went someplace else. So the only correct questions to follow are those: When? Where? How?
You are unable to answer a single of those. "NO U!" as you have provided for the last few replies only weakens your position further.

 

[Nick Terry]

You're right. So let me try to explain it to you. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the people and government of the United States decided anybody with Japanese ancestry, both citizen and non-citizen, was a danger to the country. All Japanese Americans on the West Coast were eventually rounded up, forced to abandon all their possessions that they couldn't carry on their backs, packed into cattle cars, and concentrated in very small camps in the interior of the country. Short wave radios and cameras had been confiscated from the Japanese and the government didn't allow photographs to be taken of the round ups. What did the government have to hide? American citizens and government officials used words like "deporting" as euphemism for exterminating the Japanese. Wild rumors about bizarre methods of execution involving bats and atomic fission sometimes were heard but the government never confirmed anything. There aren't any official US documents discussing the extermination policy. The camps in the east where the exterminations took place don't yield any evidence that the exterminations took place. Very few people have even looked for physical evidence of extermination and those who have haven't found any. At the end of the war, very few Japanese Americans could be found where they had been prior to the war. Hundreds of thousands never returned. The conclusion: the United States official policy was the extermination of the Japanese and only a bigot would ask for evidence of that.

If you want to prove otherwise, you need to find all the missing Japanese Americans.

This is beyond moronic. Firstly, just because you invent a strawman doesn't oblige anyone to debunk it. Secondly, I think you'll find that Japanese American internment is exceptionally well documented, there is a substantial literature on the subject, with Wiki providing a good starting place. There simply aren't any "missing" Japanese Americans.