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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Clayton Moore said:
Try opening a thread.
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Why? It's on topic for this one.

So far the tally is:

Number of named witnesses provided by NT - 200+

Number of named witnesses provided by Saggs - zilch

I don't know CT nut math, but 200 is a higher number than zero in the real world.
 
Dogzilla, Saggy, and Clayton Moore seem to have run out of ideas about "just one witness," named Pesye Schloss - and to have gone completely off the rails. Dogzilla has been particularly confusing, whilst vacuously vehement, in recent posts. If Dogzilla's issue is with Kruk's reliability, he should just say so - rather than giving us a confused bit of handwaving about, and an erroneous definition of, what an eyewitness is. But then, if Dogzilla wants to tackle Kruk, he needs to show, in detail (for Kruk runs to 700+ pp in English, with specifics correlating well with much other specific documentation over a period of 5 years), why Kruk is not reliable. First of all, this means he has to read Kruk and other relevant materials. Also, Dogzilla needs to explain with regard to the Great Provocation slaughter, why it is that Kruk aligns so well at the very least with (a) Sakowicz's independent account and (b) the Jaeger report. Hint: here is where Dogzilla is expected, in revisionist cuckooland, to pull out the forgery card. As in "Moscow Forgery Factory." Or as in "when the documents were found and compiled by the War Crimes, they saw a problem" and manipulated them. Or Dogzilla can just claim whatever particular flight of fancy or deus ex machina floats his boat. All this is in keeping with good denier methodology.

The Ponar killings, as Nick pointed out, have been dealt with, quite completely, in a previous discussion, with appalling results for Dogzilla's side of the matter, the earlier discussion ending with the flop-eared one telling us to "just wait" until we saw his full case. A bold promise made 9 months ago and never followed up on - we are still waiting as LGR went silent at that time on this particular topic. He moved on to Libya, he later said, which - changing the subject - come to think of it, is as good an exit strategy as any Dogzilla might find. Lodz? Warsaw? Rumbula? What'll it be?

To make matters clear as can be: Dogzilla shows not the slightest sign of familiarity with the events which Pesye Schloss witnessed - neither primary nor secondary sources. In addition, despite his dismissals of Schloss's testimony (which one doubts he's even read), Dogzilla has yet to advance any argument at all about the main claims, why they are weak, and what he makes of it all - in fact, what he's done is give us a wordier, and in some ways therefore sadder, rendition of Clayton Moore's well worn and empty incredulity.
 
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The Nazis used quicklime for nefarious purposes -

"In trucks meant to hold 20 the Germans put 80. Quicklime was placed on the floor about 10 inches deep. The doors were sealed hermetically. These people had to pass their water - that would start the lime cooking. Gas and fumes came up and choked them to death".

The Black Book

No authors are listed for the book but I believe they include Vassily Grossman and Ilya Erhenberg.
 
I'm sorta curious to know why Vassily Grossman and Ilya Ehrenburg* would be suspect.




*Let's not get into Ehrenburg urging rape against German women, as that particular charge** against Ehrenburg has been disproved repeatedly.

**This is not to say German women were not raped on an epidemic scale by the Red Army, merely that Ehrenburg never advocated this policy.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Or will they continue not to pay attention and to throw around words like "weak" and "pathetic" without so much as a single argument as to how they reached such a conclusion?
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I've noticed the three CT loons tend to use extraordinarily derogatory terms to describe eye-witnesses. Almost as if they were angry at them for debunking their theories. Is this more "anti-Zionism" at work?

I've not had luck so far getting any of them to explain why they found it so astonishing a guard would have tried to steal the shoes of a dead girl. That would be very interesting to hear.

Equally as interesting would be their explanation why it is "impossible" a guard could have machine gunned an infant thrown in the air. That would also be very interesting to hear.
 
It's a basically an argument from ignorance coupled with hero worship. "How could those upon my mental pedestals ever stoop so low as to behave criminally?"
 
Clayton Moore said:
Try opening a thread.
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Saggy has stated his belief in this fantastical conspiracy several times in this very thread, as reason in part as to why the "holohoax" as he call it is being perpetrated. Thus, his own words have made it a legitimate subject for discussion in this thread.

It also goes to demands over evidence of the Holocaust since we can then ask why he does not hold similar standards of evidence for one of his justifications for disbelieving the Holocaust.

Consequently, every time Saggy demands witnesses I'm going to demand the same of him. And I will not let him, or you, or anyone just lurking in this thread, forget that he has not supplied any such credible witness to this fantastical conspiracy of his which is part of his justification for doubting the Holocaust.
 
Robrob said:
I've noticed the three CT loons tend to use extraordinarily derogatory terms to describe eye-witnesses. Almost as if they were angry at them for debunking their theories. Is this more "anti-Zionism" at work?

I've not had luck so far getting any of them to explain why they found it so astonishing a guard would have tried to steal the shoes of a dead girl. That would be very interesting to hear.

Equally as interesting would be their explanation why it is "impossible" a guard could have machine gunned an infant thrown in the air. That would also be very interesting to hear.
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Go to the Penn State former defensive coordinator charged with sexual abuse of children thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223360

Notice how people draw the line where children are concerned. People go berserk when they see children being mistreated. Do think Jewish people were any different? Do think Jewish parents who knew their children were going to be harmed were any different? Do you think the Jewish Sonderkommando in the camps were any less humane than the posters in that thread?
 
Dogzilla said:
When I wasn't paying attention I thought this Pesye Schloss was an eyewitness. An easy mistake because the request was to name one credible eyewitness to the holocaust. I assumed somebody would offer an actual eyewitness, not a second hand account of something an eyewitness said. Sometimes I give you guys too much credit.

When I actually looked up the source I realized how pathetic it was.

And the diary is what should have been offered. Not an account of something written in the diary.

Actually he understood it quite clearly. It's the source material that wasn't clear.

Good guess.

Hell no.

I would recommend offering relevant source material in the future. Maybe this sort of confusion wouldn't occur.

I would recommend offering relevant source material in the future. When somebody asks for a credible eyewitness to the holocaust, it's better to offer something that tells us what the eyewitness witnessed with their eyes--not somebody else's second hand hearsay evidence.

He should have invoked Kruk. That was the primary source.

That must be before my time or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. I don't pay attention to eyewitness testimony when what they say happened is impossible.

You got us with that one! We ask for evidence. You offer us really bad evidence. We do a little research and find out that it's really bad evidence. Then you tell us that you knew that all along and that while we were spinning our wheels on bad evidence we missed all the good evidence! We fall for it every time!!!
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This just gets funnier and funnier. Please, keep huffing and puffing and missing all kinds of points. I think LemmyCaution has made quite a few remarks on the above, I look forward to reading your responses to him. It was, after all, his line of discussion.

But thanks for admitting you've not actually read Kassow properly, or Kruk, and thus don't have a clue what you are ostensibly meant to be discussing.

I think I figured out what Saggy is doing here. So you don't have any credible eyewitnesses do you? Not a single one?
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You haven't discredited Schloss, or Kruk, much less the other evidence for Ponary. Which is probably where the problem lies; LemmyCaution mentions a witness to Ponary, and quite a few people remember other pieces of evidence regarding Ponary. Whereas you seemingly don't.

Anyway, it's high time to repost the list of 200+ witnesses, the tip of the iceberg of course....


German– Auschwitz (24)
Rudolf Höss, Hans Aumeier, Maximilian Grabner, Friedrich Entress, Johann Kremer, Horst Fischer, Josef Kramer, Fritz Klein, Franz Hössler, Konrad Morgen, Hans Münch, Richard Baer, Walter Dejaco, Henry Storch, Hans Stark, Erich Mussfeldt, Pery Broad, Richard Böck, Karl Hölbinger, Josef Erber, Oswald Kaduk, Nowak, Kurt Prüfer, Karl Schultze
German,Collaborator –
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka (24)
Franz Stangl, Josef Oberhauser, Kurt Gerstein, Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Hermann Höfle, Franz Suchomel, Willi Metz, Otto Horn, Erich Bauer, Alfred Ittner, Gustav Wagner, Franz Hödl, Erwin Lambert, Heinrich Barbl, Heinrich Gley, Werner Karl Dubois, Karl Alfred Schluch, Erich Fuchs, Vassily Pankov, Mikhail Razgoniaev, Ignat Danilchenko, Pavel Leleko, Walter Piller, Bruno Israel
German – Other (27)
Hermann Göring, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Dieter Wisliceny, Adolf Eichmann, Wilhelm Höttl, Richard Korherr, August Becker, Walter Rauff, Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, Friedrich Jeckeln, Kurt Becher, Oswald Pohl, Gerhard Maurer, Kurt Schmidt-Klevenow, Anton Kaindl, Hermann Pister, Ilse Koch, Alois Hoellriegel, Paul Waldmann, Oscha Otto Hoppe, Theo Schölen, Otto Ohlendorf, Ostubaf Haensch, Paul Blobel, Hermann Graebe, Eberhard Wetzel, Victor Brack
Auschwitz – Sonderkommandos (21)
Miklos Nyiszli; Filip Müller, Sigismund Bendel, Szlama Dragon, Henryk Tauber, Henryk Mandelbaum, Andre Lettich, Stanislaw Jankowski; Milton Buki, Maurice Benroubi, David Olere, Dov Paisikovic, Joshuah Rosenblum, Josef Sackar, Saul Chasan, Jaacov Gabai, Eliezer Eisenschmidt, Leon Cohen, Shlomo Venezia, Salmen Lewental, Lejb Langfus
Auschwitz – Other (59)
Rudolf Vrba, Alfred Wetzler; Ada Bimko, Janda Weiss, Yehuda Bakon, Mordechai Lichtenstein, Liebermann, Regina Bialek, Sophia Litwinska, Ruth Elias, Klari Weiss, Primo Levi, Kitty Hart, Fania Fenelon, Olga Lengyel, Eugene Heimler, Elie Wiesel, Czeslaw Mordowicz, Arnost Rosin, Benedikt Kautsky, Moshe Garbarz, Rajzla Sadowska, Erwin Valentin, Lucie Adelsberger; Adolf Rögner, Erwin Bartel, Wilhelm Wohlfahrt, Bruno Baum, Hermann Langbein, Ella Lingens-Reiner, Walter Petzold, Otto Wolken, Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier, Jerzy Tabeau, Stanislaw Klodzinski, Stanislaw Chybinski, K.J., Franciszek Gulba, Jolan Holthost, Michal Kula, Seweryna Szmaglewskaya, Ludwig Nagraba, Zenon Rozanski, Josef Koczorowski, Ludwig Rajewski, Roman Taul, Feliks Mylyk, Zygmunt Smuzewski, Jiri Beranowsky, Eugeniusz Motz, Bogdan Glinski, Josef Vacek, Czeslaw Glowaki, Wojciech Barcz, Ludwig Banach, Wieslaw Kielar, Kazimierz Smolen, Henryk Porebski, Hugo Breiden,
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka (52+)
‘Szlamek’, Mordechai Zurawski, Michal Podchlebnik, Shimon Srebrnik, Jankiel Wiernik, Samuel Rajzman, Elias Rosenberg, Abraham Bomba, Richard Glazar, Samuel Willenberg, Chil Rajchman, Szymon Goldberg, Tanhum Grinberg, Shalom Cohen, Abraham Goldfarb, Oskar Berger, Abe Kon, Moszeks Laks, Maniek Plakiewicz, Stanislaw Borowy, Oscar Strawczynski, Israel Cymlich, Rudolf Reder, Chaim Hirszman, Alexander Pechersky, Leon Feldhendler, Zelda Metz, Esther Rab, Stanislaw Szmajzner, Moshe Bahir, Itzak Lichtman, Eda Litchman, Aizik Rottenberg, Yehuda Lerner, Dov Ber Freiberg, Ursula Stern, Chaim Engel, Hershl Zukerman, Kurt Thomas, Thomas Blatt, Jacob Biskubicz; Stanislaw Kozak, Jan Piwonski, Jan G., Eugeniusz Goch, Edward F, Maria Daniel, Tadeusz M, Michal Kusmierczak, Eustachy Ukrainski, Jan Sulkowski, Jules Schelvis
KZ inmates (3)
Franz Blaha, Margarete Buber-Neumann, Benen Anton,
Other (10)
Zygmunt Klukowski, Paul Roser, Jan Karski, Erich Heubaum, Rozalka Schelewna Schier, Emanuel Ringelbum, Chaim Kaplan, Hersh Smolar, Heinz Rosenberg, Herman Kruk
Deluded Witnesses (2)
Moshe Peer, Irene Zisblatt
Lying Witnesses (2)
Martin Gray, Herman Rosenblatt
False Witnesses (2)
Benjamin Wilkomirski, Misha Defoncesca
 
Dogzilla said:
So then not everybody in the Warsaw ghetto was starving? Some of the elites were doing OK? And there were differences between the ghettos as far as wealth and nutrition? But nowhere else was affected by starvation the way Warsaw was? And thousands of Jews dropped dead from starvation before the deportations to the death camps begin, leaving alive the ones presumably who had enough food to survive. So explain to me again why the size of all the Jews deported to Treblinka need to be based on the most emaciated Jews in the ghetto that suffered the worse famine?

I like the introduction there: "Leonard Tushnet was a physician and writer. His writings covered Jewish history, medicine, and science fiction, often in combination." So he might mix fantasy with reality. Check.

I thought the discussion of edema and generalized swelling as an effect of starvation was interesting. And he confirmed my hypothesis about starvation reducing the sex drive and in some cases stopping menstruation. So I guess the birth rate really plummeted eliminating a whole bunch of really tiny people being sent to the death camps.

Sounds like the density of the mass graves at Belsen would be a good metric to use.

You'll need to define "children" for that to be meaningful.

And children were deported while their parents remained behind to work? And the parents didn't complain about this? Worrying about their children didn't cause productivity problems?

How would it be possible for the proportion of children thrown into the mass graves be higher than those who arrived at the camp? The children were all murdered upon arrival and tossed into the graves. Some of the adults were kept alive for work but they too eventually were killed and tossed into the mass grave.

You can make up any reason you like to explain why there would be so many more children in the mass graves. Without any sources cited, it doesn't carry much weight. If you want to use Roberto's estimate that 20 corpses will fit in a cubic meter you'll need to show a mass grave that has achieved that density.

Is your fat midwesterner Charles Provan by any chance? He did an experiment showing density of bodies in a gas chamber. He was working with living bodies that can contort themselves to fit into X square feet in size. We're talking about dead bodies that can fit into X cubic meters in size. It's an apples and oranges comparison that is especially pathetic because his experiment didn't even prove what he said it did. But that's OK because--maybe you remember this--a while back someone made a brilliant point about the holocaust by juxtaposing an identical quote being used by Michael Shermer in two different contexts. One of the points people tried to use to dismiss this was that Michael Shermer isn't a historian. Well....guess what Charles Provan isn't either.

For you lurkers, check out the photographs Charles Provan used to support his findings that Kurt Gerstein estimates of the number of people in a gas chamber are actually possible. Since these photographs are necessary to "prove" that his experiment worked like he said it did, you can judge how much value to place on his findings by the quality of these pictures.

Which would be negligible.

Your the one who is still dancing around. Answer the questions so we can move forward. What is it about specific pieces of information that scares you so much?
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I still don't see anything that approximates to a coherent argument here, just a load of questions based on incredulity and ignorance. Up-thread I said I would ignore fisking, but no, you insisted on fisking.

LemmyCaution has already jeered at your apparently nonexistent knowledge of the Warsaw ghetto and other ghettos in Poland. Perhaps instead of saying 'hell no' when asked if you've read Samuel Kassow's Who Will Write Our History?, you might bother to engage with such a book, as it might cure you of some of your rampant cluelessness?

I gotta admit, my patience with pointless trolling has worn pretty thin. This week I marked the fifth of a series of weekly 500 word essays written by students in their first month of university, where they are expected to discuss two primary sources - might be photos, might be texts - and read up on 3-4 pieces of secondary literature to help them understand the context. The subjects all relate to post-1945 divided Germany (including the impact of the expulsions, oppression in the GDR, consumerism, terrorism, etc). Being first years some of them make mistakes, of course. Some forget one week to mention the primary sources, some forget to mention any secondary literature. They do that, they fail, so they quickly learn. And pretty quickly they manage to figure out how to discuss complex issues concisely. By now they're doing really well.

You, however, are not.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Go to the Penn State former defensive coordinator charged with sexual abuse of children thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223360

Notice how people draw the line where children are concerned. People go berserk when they see children being mistreated. Do think Jewish people were any different? Do think Jewish parents who knew their children were going to be harmed were any different? Do you think the Jewish Sonderkommando in the camps were any less humane than the posters in that thread?
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Total non-sequitur to the post you were replying to.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Go to the Penn State former defensive coordinator charged with sexual abuse of children thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223360

Notice how people draw the line where children are concerned. People go berserk when they see children being mistreated. Do think Jewish people were any different? Do think Jewish parents who knew their children were going to be harmed were any different? Do you think the Jewish Sonderkommando in the camps were any less humane than the posters in that thread?
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No, what I notice is that people often cross the line where children are concerned, as did Jerry Sandusky and those who allowed his exploitation of children to continue. This post, for its illogic, would be amusing if the subject were not so serious and the criminality not so brazen and atrocious, in that you demonstrate, first, that child abuse occurs even at "exemplary" Penn State, and, second, that people react to it. How the serial rape of children by a "normal" jock, covered up by icons around Joe Paterno for over a decade, in any way helps your implausibility argument is beyond my imagination.
 
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Nick Terry said:
I still don't see anything that approximates to a coherent argument here. . . .
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Nope, me neither. So, once again, let's make this easy for Saggy, Clayton Moore, and Dogzilla. No more braying and wild cheers, no more empty claims. Time for some direct answers to simple questions:

(1) As to the eyewitness Pesye Schloss, who offered first-hand knowledge of the early September mass execution of Vilna Jews at Ponar, can the deniers tell what were the lies they claim she told and how they know she lied?

(2) Then, can they explain how Yudis Trojak, another eyewitness, whose first-hand experience in the same murder action was taken down by Kruk, lied and how they know she lied?

(3) And then can they further explain Sakowicz's Ponar diary, which provides additional first-hand evidence for the same action?

(4) Also, can they explain the contents of Jaeger's official report of December 1941 describing in part the same event?

(5) And, finally, might they deal with a secondary source, Arad's account in Ghetto in Flames, and tell us the supposed problems with that reconstruction of the events of the first week of September 1941 in Vilna and at Ponar?

Or will they continue not to pay attention and to throw around words like "weak" and "pathetic" without so much as a single argument as to how they reached such a conclusion?
 
Help for the floundering denier trio. Here's a synopsis of one source for the murder action at Ponar in which Pesye Schloss was caught up: Kazimierz Sakowicz, a Polish journalist living in a rude home at Ponar, recorded the events of 2 September 1941, at the site, on a windy, rainy day: shots could be heard starting early in the morning; during the morning "on the road there was a long procession of people . . . two kilometers (for sure)"; "There were, as it turns out, 4,000--so says Jankowski; others claim that it was 4,875, exclusively women and many babies" who were killed; the victims realized what was occurring and shouted; "Eighty Shaulists did the shooting," that is Lithuanian riflemen (the Shaulists were members of a paramilitary nationalist group), while 100 Lithuanians guarded the perimeter; the shooters were drunk; tortures preceded the murders; "The men were shot separately. The women were stripped to their underwear"; as usual, after the murders, the Lithuanian killers pilfered confiscated clothing; "There were many wounded. One woman escaped to Dolna. She was shot in the arm. . . . That day the Heneks met 5 bleeding Jewish women, their clothes torn to shreds"; "These shootings were a punishment for the bogus shooting at German soldiers in Wilno on Sunday, August 31. There on the outskirts of the city, Hingst announced that Jews would be punished for the shooting . . ." The full text of Sakowicz's entry for this event can be found of course in the English language edition of Sakowicz's Ponar diary. Please let us know if your silence is down to your not also having access to the Jaeger report; that report is online but if you would prefer excerpts to be recorded in this thread, do let me know.
 
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More from The Black Book,

"Many commandants of concentration camps actually singled out children for particular cruelty. The commandant of the Janowski camp in Lvov, Obersturmfuehrer Wilhaus especially enjoyed this sport. He was in the habit of sanding on the balcony of the camp office and taking pot-shots at the prisoners below to amuse his wife and nine-year old daughter. Sometimes Wilhaus would order someone to throw three- or four-year old children into the air while he shot at them. His daughter would clap her hands and cry: 'Do it again, Papa, do it again.' And he would go on shooting."

And the Jewish parents? Why they just watched their children being used for target practice.

These are degenerate lies, and beyond that, absurd degenerate lies. They characterize the holohoax.
 
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