Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Dogzilla]

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You mean like your comment about the Holocaust being held to different standard than other historical events, and your single minded focus on refusing to actually *cite* such another event and demonstrate that the body of evidence supporting it was handled differently?
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I proved the holocaust is held to a different standard conclusively several weeks ago and you continue to demonstrate that it's true. Anyway, the time between the notes relates the colour to the scenes.

Or didn't you know that?

 

[Nick Terry]

I proved the holocaust is held to a different standard conclusively several weeks ago and you continue to demonstrate that it's true.

Please link to the posts where you "proved" this. A simple request, so you should be able to answer it without tapdancing around for 50 pages.

 

[Dogzilla]

Not if you want to work people to death, which is what the Nazis wanted, and which is why it is considered part of the holocaust.

You know, it's often easier to credibly deny history if you actually know something about it.

There was a labor shortage. Germany needed workers more than it needed to kill people off. Germany had reduced rations for it's own citizens. If Germany wanted to work people to death why didn't it just cut off all food to the slave laborers? They would've died off far more quickly and the food they didn't eat could then be distributed to Germans.

 

[Dogzilla]

Only when you have a shortage of labor which was not a problem for Germany at the time

Uh....yeah it was. Why would Jews be kept alive so they could work if there wasn't a labor shortage and the Nazis wanted all the Jews dead?

 

[Dogzilla]

Please link to the posts where you "proved" this. A simple request, so you should be able to answer it without tapdancing around for 50 pages.

Search for Michael Shermer. You'll find the post that presented the initial evidence. You need to read the comments from people explaining why the same standard that is true for the holocaust but not for another historical event isn't a double standard to understand. My initial post could have easily been rebutted by saying that these are only two examples. It's the mental gymnastics people go through to explain why I'm wrong and their refusal to answer any followup questions that proves conclusively that I'm right.

 

[uke2se]

There was a labor shortage. Germany needed workers more than it needed to kill people off.

Yes, and this was one of the major arguments against killing the Jews within the Nazi regime. However, ideological concerns were put above all other.

Germany had reduced rations for it's own citizens. If Germany wanted to work people to death why didn't it just cut off all food to the slave laborers?

Because they could use the slave labourers for a while on minimal rations. When the "Jewish issue" was dealt with, the Nazis counted on having won the war and having access to vast new lands and slaves in the east.

They would've died off far more quickly and the food they didn't eat could then be distributed to Germans.

The Nazis didn't necessarily want them to die quickly. The Jews that could work were to be kept alive until last. When the Jews who couldn't work were all dead, the deaths of the last slave labourers would complete the eradication of the Jews.

 

[uke2se]

Search for Michael Shermer. You'll find the post that presented the initial evidence. You need to read the comments from people explaining why the same standard that is true for the holocaust but not for another historical event isn't a double standard to understand. My initial post could have easily been rebutted by saying that these are only two examples. It's the mental gymnastics people go through to explain why I'm wrong and their refusal to answer any followup questions that proves conclusively that I'm right.

Michael Shermer isn't a holocaust historian, nor have you been able to show how even he holds the holocaust to a different standard than any other historical event. You have tried and failed with several analogies, but the simple fact remains: you have not proved your assertion.

 

[Saggy]

You must've been far more precocious than I was.

Well, I'm not saying I realized it was a hoax at that time, but I distinctly remember registering the cognitive dissonance, over and over.

It's the evidence that supports the holocaust that makes the holocaust a hoax or at least a gross exaggeration. Whether or not it's what our Hebrew Overlords want us to believe says nothing about the truthfulness of it.

Here you are dead wrong. The lack of evidence for the hoax is readily apparent, even to a 10 year old as noted.

No one believes the hoax because of the evidence, they believe it because they are told it 100,000 times by the time they are 10 years old by degenerate liars the likes of which the world has never seen. They believe it only because the Jewish controlled media has told them 100,000 degenerate lies by the time they are 10. The incessant propaganda is the hoax, not the non-existent evidence.

You can establish that the 'evidence' is phony 100 times, but, so what, the hoax still exists. It is independent of the evidence which no one knows beyond the Belsen pics anyhow.

So, that is the interesting question, how does the hoax exist with no evidence that is not obviously phony, even to a 10 year old? Not Nick Terry's degenerate arguments.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I didn't make a mistake as a 10 year old. The Belsen victims were presented as victims of the holoccaust, i.e. gassing victims.

This is disingenuous. Jews starving in Lodz or Warsaw, those worked to death, slowly or quickly, at Monowitz or Mauthausen, Jews shot to death during the Erntefest, people shot into pits at Ponar or mowed down in Rumbula, slave laborers at Dora-Middlebau, internees at Drancy, Jews in Hamburg dispossessed and shoved out of Germany, Jews slain during Reichskristallnacht--all these were victims of the Nazis and a part of the history of the genocide.

It is a denier gambit that the Holocaust = 6 million Jews gassed in the death camps.

An adult named Saggy misunderstands and misrepresents just as much as his 10 year old predecessor.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Do you wonder where the five million figure for the number of non-Jewish victims of the holohoax comes from?

Wonder no more, just read this article by the darling of holocaustianity, Deborah Lipstadt, to discover that Simone Wiesenthal made up the number out of thin air ..... just like all the hoax numbers were made up, btw ...

http://www.jewishreviewofbooks.com/publications/detail/simon-wiesenthal-and-the-ethics-of-history

Now, if you are not a degenerate* liar you will agree with me that the number is a deliberate hoax that was perpetrated by degenerate liars.

Then, if you're with me that far, we can explore some other obvious degenerate lies.

* a degenerate lie, by way of explanation, is the opposite of a heroic lie.

You haven't read Hilberg, have you? I suggest you do so, the appendix, to see how the estimate of 5+ million Jewish deaths is built up.

 

[LemmyCaution]

There was a labor shortage. Germany needed workers more than it needed to kill people off. Germany had reduced rations for it's own citizens. If Germany wanted to work people to death why didn't it just cut off all food to the slave laborers? They would've died off far more quickly and the food they didn't eat could then be distributed to Germans.

Germany's labor shortages came into play when it became clear that the war would be protracted -- and after millions of Jews had been killed (shot, starved, gassed). Rations were in fact increased, on occasion in Lodz, at various times in order to keep Jews working -- not to anything like humane or even rational levels but enough to enable halfway productive labor. Racist attitudes even in necessity characterized policy and behavior. And even when Germany's labor needs were acute, the killing off of Jews in the death camps and shootings continued. Surprise, there was not absolute consistency throughout the Reich's conquered territory, there were competing views within the party and government, and there were shifts and surges in labor policy. Death was the final result intended for Europe's Jews, but the pace of killing was not uniform, policy reflected temporary needs, some Jews were kept alive in various places for a time to serve these needs, food rations were always stringent, and the killing of Jews continued into late 1944 despite the Reich's needs.

 

[LemmyCaution]

No one believes the hoax because of the evidence, they believe it because they are told it 100,000 times by the time they are 10 years old by degenerate liars the likes of which the world has never seen. They believe it only because the Jewish controlled media has told them 100,000 degenerate lies by the time they are 10. The incessant propaganda is the hoax, not the non-existent evidence.

You can establish that the 'evidence' is phony 100 times, but, so what, the hoax still exists. It is independent of the evidence which no one knows beyond the Belsen pics anyhow.

You keep saying this sort of thing. But every time you are confronted with anything specific, like Nick's list of 200 witnesses or a single witness fitting your own request, you dodge it, retreating to Wiesel and other irrelevancies.

 

[Wroclaw]

Little poll here. Saggy's been going on about some kinda Jew indoctrination stuff, something about how from the time you're a kid, you get the Holocaust hammered into you over and over again. I'm wondering how many of you that are American had this experience.

I grew up in the Northeastern United States and attended a public school system where about one-third of the students were Jewish. I also grew up with mixed Jewish-Gentile ancestry. For my own part, the total number of lessons I received in twelve years of public schooling was zero point zero zero.

Throw in college as well, which was private Catholic. Zero times.

Everything I know about the Holocaust I learned because I read about it myself.

For real.

So how 'bout you?

 

[BaaBaa]

Everything I know about the Holocaust I learned because I read about it myself

When I was a kid, ten or so, I began to read about The War (my grandparents and their friends always seemed to have capital letters when they spoke about it) and learned about Hilter and his Judeophobia and learned bibs and bobs more. I think the first camp I really read about to any degree was Thereseinstadt...

 

[MG1962]

Everything I know about the Holocaust I learned because I read about it myself.

My earliest memory of the holocaust was when I was about 9 or 10 wandering around the local cemetery. I came across a memorial - nothing unusual, Rookwood is one of the largest Necropolis in the world and has 30 plus memorials to various faith etc. It was what was on the memorial that stuck with me

May the world never again witness such inhumanity of man against man

 

[Corsair 115]

The lack of evidence for the hoax is readily apparent, even to a 10 year old as noted.

The lack of evidence for your claim that the "Jews control everything" makes it apparent, even to a 10-year-old, that you are incapable of supporting the claims you yourself made in this very thread, the most recent occurrence of which was in post #6357.

Given your utter failure to support your claim, why should we take your protestations of a lack of evidence for the Holocaust as anything other than the ravings of a virulent anti-Semite?

No one believes the hoax because of the evidence, they believe it because they are told it 100,000 times by the time they are 10 years old by degenerate liars the likes of which the world has never seen.

No one believes your ridiculous claims that "the Jews control everything." You can say it 100,000 times, it still doesn't make it true. And you have still utterly failed to provide even ONE CREDIBLE WITNESS to this supposed control over everything.

A reasonable person is left to conclude the only "degenerate liar" in this thread is you.

They believe it only because the Jewish controlled media has told them 100,000 degenerate lies by the time they are 10.

No one believes your ridiculous claims that the Jews control all media. You can say it 100,000 times, it still doesn't make it true. And you have still utterly failed to provide even ONE CREDIBLE WITNESS to this supposed control over all media.

A reasonable person is left to conclude the only "degenerate liar" in this thread is you.

You can establish that the 'evidence' is phony 100 times, but, so what, the hoax still exists.

We don't have to show your evidence for this supposed Jewish control over the media and everything is phony; you haven't even provided any such evidence at all. Nothing. Zip. Nada. There is nothing to debunk. You can't even get that far—which shows just how sad and pathetic your global Jewish conspiracy claim really is.

So, that is the interesting question, how does the hoax exist with no evidence that is not obviously phony, even to a 10 year old?

The interesting question is why do you keep talking about this Jewish control over the media and everything when it is clear to even a 10-year-old that you have utterly failed to provide even one iota of evidence to demonstrate it? A reasonable person must conclude that your claims about it are obviously phony, an utter hoax.

 

[Robrob]

Germany needed workers more than it needed to kill people off. Germany had reduced rations for it's own citizens. If Germany wanted to work people to death why didn't it just cut off all food to the slave laborers?

You do realize there were more than a few American soldiers sent to those work camps, right?

Were they all liars too?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Uh....yeah it was. Why would Jews be kept alive so they could work if there wasn't a labor shortage and the Nazis wanted all the Jews dead?

And for every task there is a learning curve and the need for supervision and quality control. Debilitating and demoralizing workers and eventually killing them makes little sense if there is value to their efforts.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Little poll here. Saggy's been going on about some kinda Jew indoctrination stuff, something about how from the time you're a kid, you get the Holocaust hammered into you over and over again. I'm wondering how many of you that are American had this experience.

I grew up in the Northeastern United States and attended a public school system where about one-third of the students were Jewish. I also grew up with mixed Jewish-Gentile ancestry. For my own part, the total number of lessons I received in twelve years of public schooling was zero point zero zero.

Throw in college as well, which was private Catholic. Zero times.

Everything I know about the Holocaust I learned because I read about it myself.

For real.

So how 'bout you?

Different background, pretty much the same experience. I took a modern European history course in college and we skimmed over the Holocaust -- maybe a short reading, part of one class period. Around 1970. Nothing in high school. When I was growing up, the ideological focus of the "MSM" and the "victors" was of course the Cold War and then little hot wars like Vietnam. Not the so-called Zionist hoax project. All I learned, likewise, I learned long after formal schooling, because of my own personal interest, prompted by my other reading and discussions with people knowledgeable about the period, and by my seeking texts and sources out. I will say that my father, who volunteered to fight Hitler but was sent to the Pacific, made many references as I grew up to Hitler, Nazi antisemitism, gas chambers and the like. These references were usually very general.

During high school I took part in a summer program for academic enrichment, drawing juniors and seniors from different backgrounds to an on-campus residential program. In the program were a few proto-JDL type kids who adopted the slogan "Never Again." Contact with them didn't move me to learn about the Holocaust or Jewish history as it was overshadowed by -- this was '68 -- interest in the Black Liberation Movement and Vietnam. Most of the engagement in that program was around these 2 issues, nothing to speak of regarding the Holocaust or antisemitism, other than some tension between some of the Black kids and some of Jewish kids which led to "encounter" sessions on these tensions. Similar sessions, and many more, for the white suburban kids and the inner-city kids. A quite volatile and inflamed time. But the fulcrum wasn't the Holocaust, of course, which couldn't get a word in edgewise, so to speak. Most of the Jewish kids in this program focused on the issues of the times and kept their distance from the JDL-types.

I think I've posted about this before, but I did a review of middle school and high school textbook coverage of the Holocaust and concluded that if I double the coverage - to be generous and to account for possible departures adding to the curriculum - the average American student will receive about 1-2 class periods of coverage of the Holocaust broadly construed, per year grades 6-12. College depends on a student's major and course schedule. To put the high school figure into perspective, Nick Terry sometimes writes longish posts which some deniers complain about. The average student in a year spends about as much time on the Holocaust as Nick spends on 1-2 of these long posts. That's it, other than what they happen to see on TV, online, etc.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You do realize there were more than a few American soldiers sent to those work camps, right?

Were they all liars too?

As a tangent, concerning rations rather than labor, my father in law was taken as a POW in the Battle of the Bulge and sent to a German POW camp to which Russian POWs were also sent. He was anti-Soviet to the core but told me many times that these Russians were basically being starved to death. His own rations, he said, were paltry but what was done to the Russians he found beyond the pale. Many years after the events, his captivity quite traumatic (he had been shot, was poorly cared for, etc), he still spoke very bitterly about how the Germans treated the Russian soldiers. The literature, of course, confirms what my father in law witnessed.

As a further aside, my father in law and another American prisoner successfully escaped from captivity.