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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Painted_Bird

Wiesel also played a role in the initial success of The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kosinski by endorsing it prior to revelations that the book was fiction and, in the sense that it was presented as all Kosinski's true experience, a hoax.

Wiesel on Wiki



Oddly, none of his lies are mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel#2007_attack_on_Wiesel
Norman Finkelstein, former professor of political science at DePaul University, wrote in The Holocaust Industry: "Long after Kosiński was exposed as a consummate literary hoaxer, Wiesel continued to heap encomiums on his "remarkable body of work."[5] Finkelstein wrote that Kosiński's book “depicts the Polish peasants he lived with as virulently anti-Semitic” even though they were fully aware of his Jewishness and “the dire consequences they themselves faced if caught.”[8]

Why don't the Holocaust historians speak out against the liars.
 
Argumentum ad googlum.

The list of logical fallacies has really increased since the rise of the internet.

Clayton probably hasn't realised that I use google.co.uk, being British.

No claim was being made that Levi has sold more books; Wiesel also racks up a greater number of hits in Google News Archive (circa 23,000 vs 16,000 stories). But this isn't terribly impressive when you remember that Wiesel has been alive for nearly a quarter of a century longer, and has repeatedly pronounced on all manner of current news stories, whereas Levi is being invoked purely as a writer.
 
You're confusing unimaginable with impossible. The Manson family committed acts which are unimaginable. Susan Atkins tasted her victim's blood. That's disgusting but we all know it's possible to do that. If Susan Atkins bragged about devouring the bodies of all the victims before leaving the scene of the crime, we would say she was lying because that would be impossible.

There are elements of the holocaust that are simply impossible.
No, I am not confusing unimaginable with impossible. I was commenting on the Mueller cold tea gambit, and I was telling Saggy, LGR, and the rest of you that the cold tea gambit is stupid.
 
Denier rants about Wiesel are about as relevant as some moron ranting about Madonna to a fan of dubstep.

Time for a Levi rant .... like Wiesel, when the Soviet army approached Auschwitz Levi was in the camp, but like Wiesel he wasn't being gassed, he was in the camp hospital, in Levi's case being treated for an infectious disease, probably typhus. Also, like Wiesel, Levi did not report seeing gas chambers at Auschwitz (as I understand it, I haven't bothered to read this particular degenerate). Unlike Wiesel, Levi took the option offered by the Nazis to stay in the camp when the Nazi evacuated, and he was freed by the Soviets.
 
Why don't you go ahead and add his lies to the text. Wikipedia is community created, so anyone can write. The joos can't control you there.

They do have standards of evidence, though, so you're probably SOL anyway.

Clean up your own house.

Oh wait. Why not let some "anti-Semite" do it so you can reinforce the imprinting that to question Jews is to HATE them.
 
Those are the core facts, and no amount of trying from deniers after 30 years (curiously, we didn't hear much about 'physical impossibility' until uber-chimp Faurisson started screeching) has proven them to be impossible.

Piling thousands of people in a room the size of the crematoriums and gassing them using Zyklon is not only impossible it is absurd. Cremating bodies in a pit is not only impossible it is absurd.

Have you noticed that Hollywood does not even attempt to 'recreate' these idiocies. That is because they realize that any attempted recreation would reveal the absurdity to all and sundry.

That is why there are no forensic investigations. You cannot investigate idiocy, it is absurd on its face.
 
Time for a Levi rant .... like Wiesel, when the Soviet army approached Auschwitz Levi was in the camp, but like Wiesel he wasn't being gassed, he was in the camp hospital, in Levi's case being treated for an infectious disease, probably typhus. Also, like Wiesel, Levi did not report seeing gas chambers at Auschwitz (as I understand it, I haven't bothered to read this particular degenerate). Unlike Wiesel, Levi took the option offered by the Nazis to stay in the camp when the Nazi evacuated, and he was freed by the Soviets.
A few things are clear from this post: 1) You don't have a grasp on the chronology of Auschwitz or the Holocaust as a whole. 2) You don't have a grasp on the structure and layout of the Auschwitz complex nor the roles/functions of the various parts. 3) You are quite willing to make definitive statements about a work you haven't read and you betray no knowledge of Primo Levi's time in the camp. 4) You seem to realize that you do rant.
rant
   
RANT! verb (used without object)
1. to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave: The demagogue ranted for hours.
RANT! Nice.
 
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Clayton probably hasn't realised that I use google.co.uk, being British.

No claim was being made that Levi has sold more books; Wiesel also racks up a greater number of hits in Google News Archive (circa 23,000 vs 16,000 stories). But this isn't terribly impressive when you remember that Wiesel has been alive for nearly a quarter of a century longer, and has repeatedly pronounced on all manner of current news stories, whereas Levi is being invoked purely as a writer.

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=pfwc&cp=7&gs_id=y&xhr=t&q=Primo+Levi&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Primo+L&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=f&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e63f411d40bdb19e&biw=1024&bih=507
Search
About 2,530,000 results (0.25 seconds)


http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=pfwc&cp=6&gs_id=28&xhr=t&q=Elie+Wiesel&pq=primo+levi&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Elie+W&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=f&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e63f411d40bdb19e&biw=1024&bih=507

Search
About 3,090,000 results (0.14 seconds)
 
Clean up your own house.

Oh wait. Why not let some "anti-Semite" do it so you can reinforce the imprinting that to question Jews is to HATE them.

What do I have to clean up? None of you deniers have ever been able to prove that anyone you accuse of lying actually is. On the other hand, your own lies are so transparent it is a testament to the ability of the human mind to decieve itself that you don't actually see the irony.

And Clayton, don't even pretend that you don't hate Jews. Your many rants in this thread has proven that beyond reasonable doubt.
 
A few things are clear from this post: 1) You don't have a grasp on the chronology of Auschwitz or the Holocaust as a whole. 2) You don't have a grasp on the structure and layout of the Auschwitz complex nor the roles/functions of the various parts. 3) You are quite willing to make definitive statements about a work you haven't read and you betray no knowledge of Primo Levi's time in the camp. 4) You seem to realize that you do rant. Nice.

Saggy knows nothing about the history he is so desperate to deny. That has been clear from the beginning.

In fact, none of our deniers seem to even have the knowledge one might glean from a highschool course on the holocaust. Perhaps they were all asleep on that day, or perhaps their all-encompassing hatred for all things Jewish made them blind to history.
 
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No, you very clearly *tried* in your "example" to equate the bodies of evidence between these events.

Here, let me help you out:

com·pare: to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences

Now, since it is the same standard you are referring to, then something *else* must be different.

Which is *either* the fact that one example was the Holocaust, in which case you are begging the question with what you believe is a tautology, or the evidence is different in the cases.

Yes, the "something else" that is different is that one is the holocaust and the other is the not-holocaust. Of course the evidence is going to be different--the events are different.

Let's try a hypothetical example to see if it helps you understand. Let's say you're conducting a survey of people's attitudes toward the holocaust and the Armenian Genocide. You developed a questionnaire with ten multiple choice questions. After the survey was complete, if you found out that the answers didn't support your hypothesis, would it be OK to throw out some of questionnaires or change the answers so you would get the results you want? Even you would probably say that it is not OK to do this. Would it matter if there was more evidence of the Armenian Genocide than there was for the holocaust? Would it matter if there was more evidence for the holocaust than the Armenian Genocide? Would it matter if the results you were getting would really be offensive to the Armenian community? Would it matter if it would offend the Jewish community? Would there be any circumstances at all in which you could change answers to a questionnaire to get the results you want?

You would have to say that there are not. So you could say, as a general statement of principle that it's not OK to change answers to survey questions so you can get the results you want. Or to simplify, the maxim is: "You can't make up evidence to support your point."

No matter how much or how little evidence you have on any question at all, it's not OK to fabricate evidence.

We don't have nearly as many testimonies from Armenian Genocide survivors as we do from holocaust survivors. Would it be OK to make up Armenian Genocide survivor testimonies? If I said it's OK to fabricate Armenian Genocide survivor stories but it's not OK to do that with the holocaust, would you say I'm employing a double standard?

But Shermer *didn't* say there is a general absence of evidence. He was very clearly referring to Cole's 'questions' which he characterized as not significant but instead "nice to know".

Shermer said Coles questions were "important" and that it would be "good to have answers to" them. I guess "important" and "not significant" are synonymous. You're right that Shermer wasn't talking about absence of evidence for the holocaust. He was talking about David Cole's important questions, the lack of evidence to answer these questions, and the reminder that not having evidence is OK.

Really? I haven't seen anyone else concede this point at all.

Really, I haven't seen anybody say that it is true that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

And no, the discussion is not to what degree, but if. Something you have spectacularly failed to demonstrate.

Since you believe that "important" and "not significant" are synonymous, I assume you are similarly confused about the meaning of "spectacularly failed to demonstrate"
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No, because someone *reliable* pulled off our shelves and pointed out the passage to me, having more recently re-read it than I.

And you can be assured that the topic is addressed in "the passage" and nowhere else? I suggest you find somebody who is literate as well as reliable to do your homework for you.


Your turn: on what page does Shermer apply this standard?

It's important to you, not me. You show me on what page he doesn't.

Now this, on the other hand, *is* off topic, and a flat out lie.

I think this season is better than last season but I'm afraid it might have jumped the shark. There haven't been any episodes recently as funny as the one with Crazy Eyes Killer.

This is also both.
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No, that's what you tried and failed to do, for reasons that have been pointed out by other posters as well.

But do keep flailing -- it's mildly amusing in a train-wreck sort of way.
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If you're going to insist that it's some sort of mystical number, show me the passages in the Talmud that say this. I'd rather watch paint dry than read that waste of paper so don't tell me to look it up myself.
 
Indeed, or anywhere else in the world where Jews are personae non grata?

Mahmoud Abbas, of course, wrote his doctoral dissertation in the Soviet Union on Zionist collaboration with the Nazis — a dissertation that many who've read it (I've not) have tagged as soft Holocaust denial. So where is the great Arab/Muslim scholar to tackle the big bad Holocaust in some academic way? I mean, it's not like they don't have universities in that part of the world.*


*In fact, they have the oldest ones in the world.


You, of course, have evidence they have not?
 
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Durrr. Because they're all in on it.

But I'm curious about this Katyn "presentation" -- what, exactly was presented, and how did the court treat it? Can it be that we've finally found DZ's so-called double standard regarding the Holocaust?
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The more I think about it, I believe "double standard" isn't accurate. In general, "no standard" is apropos for the holocaust. In this specific case, we don't really have a double standard. We know the Katyn massacre really happened because we have the Nazi report documenting the atrocities. We know the holocaust happened because we have people who say so. We believe both Katyn and the holocaust happened. It would be a double standard if we had an independent international commission sponsored study for both the holocaust and for Katyn but we were to say we know Katyn happened but we insisted the holocaust didn't.

Does anybody else think it's ironic that the only valid, reliable scientific investigation of any World War II atrocity was sponsored by Nazi Germany?
 
No, I am not confusing unimaginable with impossible. I was commenting on the Mueller cold tea gambit, and I was telling Saggy, LGR, and the rest of you that the cold tea gambit is stupid.

I agree that the cold tea gambit is pretty lame. When you have buck naked preteen girls manhandling Filip Mueller--throwing him out of the gas chamber so he can survive, by miracle, to bear witness--why would you talk about the cold tea incident?
 
We know the Katyn massacre really happened because we have the Nazi report documenting the atrocities. We know the holocaust happened because we have people who say so.

We also have the CO of Treblinka admiting it in his own words. Have you found the same confession from the NKVD CO for the Katyn executions? No? Well I guess the evidence is a little stronger for Treblinka.

But that's silly isn't it? There is tons of evidence for both events. It's just that there isn't a "Katyn denial cult" anymore, so no one is pretending Katyn didn't happen.


Does anybody else think it's ironic that the only valid, reliable scientific investigation of any World War II atrocity was sponsored by Nazi Germany?
Yes I do. Here were the Germans executing Poles while publishing a report about how awful it was for the Russians to execute Poles. Here is your current cult continuing to deny the Germans executed Poles while saying how lovely the Nazis report was.

You are funny.
 
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