Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[TSR]

The link's most horrific revelation by Oscar Strawczynski was a German walking around with his dog and punching Jewish people in the head.

What the hell?

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And you think that a excerpt from a questionable website is the sum total of what Strawczynski wrote?

Or is it that "The commander gave a short speech on the punishment of the escapees and the two boys were hung naked by their feet. The Germans whipped their swinging bodies for about half an hour, until one of the Germans pulled a gun and shot them” isn't horrific enough for you?

But let's run with this -- is the statement you cite a lie? That *was* your "non-liar" buddy's contention, after all...
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[LemmyCaution]

The link's most horrific revelation by Oscar Strawczynski was a German walking around with his dog and punching Jewish people in the head.

What the hell?

I see you haven't read his book. Do you know when and under what conditions it was written? Do you know anything about it other than a few excerpts posted at a Website that isn't very reliable? Anyway, I was referring, of course, to Strawczynski's book, not the Website (which is not even a decent representation of the book made from Strawczynski's account). How do you know that Strawczynski is a pathological liar if you don't even know his eyewitness account? Why would anyone rely on your word for anything if this is the best you can do?

You joined with Saggy dismissing all Jewish witnesses as liars, yet here is one you aren't familiar with. Clearly. Without knowing what he says, you've branded him a liar. This is why only people with deep bias and an animus toward the victims will ever take your arguments seriously.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I see you haven't read his book. Do you know when and under what conditions it was written? Do you know anything about it other than a few excerpts posted at a Website that isn't very reliable? Anyway, I was referring, of course, to Strawczynski's book, not the Website (which is not even a decent representation of the book made from Strawczynski's account). How do you know that Strawczynski is a pathological liar if you don't even know his eyewitness account? Why would anyone rely on your word for anything if this is the best you can do?

You joined with Saggy dismissing all Jewish witnesses as liars, yet here is one you aren't familiar with. Clearly. Without knowing what he says, you've branded him a liar. This is why only people with deep bias and an animus toward the victims will ever take your arguments seriously.

You people make up crap that distorts what people actually say or don't say.

Did I say Strawczynski was a liar? No.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Did I say Strawczynski was a liar? No.

You have, of course, dismissed the Holocaust as lies, repeatedly. After Saggy wrote that

The lies of Zizblatt are representative, as are the lies of Wiernik, Wiesel, Bomba, Meuller, Rosenberg, Vrba, et. al. There is not a single credible Jewish holohoax witness. All one has to do to discover the holohoax is a complete fabrication is to read the actual 'testimony' of any of these pathological liars,

you joined in, dismissing Nick's post and mine with:

No one gave ONE. All danced around with double talk.

I took that to be in agreement with Saggy. Perhaps I was mistaken.

So, to be clear, do you agree or disagree with Saggy? If you disagree with Saggy, why didn't you say so instead of chiming in with him?

 

[Dogzilla]

Before you get your answer, would you care to explain why you insist on calling Nizkor a "hate site"? Or is this just childish projection of the kind we have come to expect from the intellectually subnormal?

Because it promotes the hatred of Germans. That's kind of a no-brainer. So what about that Affidavit?

 

[Dogzilla]

No, I doubt anyone's saying that.

Next.

I think the general consensus is that Jews helped organize deportations; Jews helped confiscate and sort the belongings of other Jews who were sent to the camps; Jews maintained the charade of taking a shower while directing other Jews to their death in the gas chambers and then Jews removed the dead Jews from the gas chamber and incinerated the bodies.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Because it promotes the hatred of Germans. That's kind of a no-brainer.

"No brainer" is not an explanation. How does the site promote hatred of Germans? I have some familiarity with the site, I don't recall its promoting hatred of Germans -- or even discussing Germans in general. It is very negative about the Nazis, of course, as well as deniers, and it provides resources related to the Holocaust and to exposing denial as fraudulent. It is not clear, let alone a no-brainer, how this is the same as promoting hatred of Germans. Can you provide some examples from the site of this hatred?

 

[Clayton Moore]

I think the general consensus is that Jews helped organize deportations; Jews helped confiscate and sort the belongings of other Jews who were sent to the camps; Jews maintained the charade of taking a shower while directing other Jews to their death in the gas chambers and then Jews removed the dead Jews from the gas chamber and incinerated the bodies.

Which of course is why it didn't happen.

The labor to support the Holocaust myth had to be performed by someone. Why not victimize the Jewish people even more by saying they could be forced to kill children and babies?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think the general consensus is that Jews helped organize deportations; Jews helped confiscate and sort the belongings of other Jews who were sent to the camps; Jews maintained the charade of taking a shower while directing other Jews to their death in the gas chambers and then Jews removed the dead Jews from the gas chamber and incinerated the bodies.

So are you saying that what Clayton Moore meant when he wrote

Jewish people killing Jewish children, women, and men in gas chambers. That's the what the believers say happened. That's a lie.

was that the consensus is that some Jews were forced to take various roles (assisting in roundups and deportations, helping in logistics at various points, helping sort and salvage stolen goods, for example) in the extermination process, most often on pain of death, and that none of those roles involved Jewish people killing Jewish children, women, and men in gas chambers but did involve support tasks?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Which of course is why it didn't happen.

The labor to support the Holocaust myth had to be performed by someone. Why not victimize the Jewish people even more by saying they could be forced to kill children and babies.

Whether the genocide happened is not a matter of your belief or disbelief. What happened is what the evidence shows happened. You've done a very poor job even focusing on evidence as you waste all your energy on speculation, couldn't haves and wouldn't haves, and meaningless hyperbole.

If the narrative of the Sonderkommando, to take the worst role Jews were forced into, is a matter of myths spun to victimize Jews, why do some Jewish men, then, say that they were forced to serve in the Sonderkommando? Why did Josef Sacker, Abraham Dragon, Shlomo Dragon, Ya'akov Gabai, Eliezer Eisenshcmidt, Saul Chazan, Leon Cohen, and Ya'akov Silverberg volunteer to relate to Gideon Greif what they were forced to do and endure? Are these men liars and myth-makers and victimizers of Jews?

 

[Nick Terry]

Because it promotes the hatred of Germans. That's kind of a no-brainer.

Show us where Nizkor "promotes the hatred of Germans". Links, please. Examples. Details. Evidence. Proof. You know, all that good stuff.

Criticism of Nazism and Holocaust denial isn't "promoting hatred of Germans". Have you asked, you know, any actual Germans what they think of Nizkor? Can you link to any German calling Nizkor a hate site?

I don't think you have. I think you're just engaged in the kind of childish projection and reverse labelling that is often practised by the intellectually subnormal, sometimes known as NO U.

 

[Chaos]

Here´s one actual German who doesn´t think Nizkor promotes hatred of Germans. Let Dogzilla show us two actual Germans who do think that, if he think they´re a majority.

 

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

Because it promotes the hatred of Germans. That's kind of a no-brainer. So what about that Affidavit?

Really? I'm German and even through Nizkor is kind of a mess, when it comes to the structure of the site, I have read a lot of stuff from there and never saw anything, that comes even close to promoting the hatred of Germans.

Funny how you nazis hide behind this "poor germans" appeal to pity BS. Nobody here in Germany even likes you guys or wants your help and we are doing just fine.

 

[TSR]

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Hey, DZ, not only did no one 'demand' the evidence you claimed we would, you seem to have forgotten the responses you *did* get altogther.

Care to keep digging the holes for those pecan trees deeper, or come up with an *actual* contemporary historical event for which you do not have to pretend that a very small (or non-existent) body of suspect evidence is equivalent to multiple sources of various types of evidence confirmed by generations of historians of all stripes and by every court of any jurisdiction which has ruled on the evidence itself?

Or you could man up, and admit what everyone here already knows, including yourself -- that your whine about double standards merely documents your own standards.

Or continue to run away from arguably the best equivalent to the Holocaust, the Great Crime.

The original ball has sadly crossed over, and an unscrupulous land speculator from the "Cooperative for Holocaust Ignorance Made Plain, See?" is trying to get the city to condemn the home where three generations of balls were raised, in order to put in a matching pair of gas station convenience stores. They call it Project Double Standards.
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[Wroclaw]

Here's a helpful image:

NSFW - link to gruesome image

http://asylumeclectica.com/grim/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/lynching111.jpg

People used to bring bag lunches. Is it really so surprising that the things described as going on during WWII happened as well?

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to change hotlink to link and to add NSFW tags.

 

[Chaos]

Oh, but those were Americans, not Germans. No self-appointed Herrenmensch would ever get the idea to appoint themselves master over the life and death of those he proclaimed subhuman vermin and a degenerate race of criminals and backstabbers, now would they?

 

[Dogzilla]

The Nazi cover-up didn't work. Big difference. The extermination camps were secret - that much is normal in governmental affairs. But they did not stay secret.

The United States wasn't defeated in a war and occupied by hostile foreign powers who had access to any and all files maintained by any government entity and private citizen. Big difference.

You also seem to be conveniently ignoring the supposed US, British, Soviet etc cover-ups involved in fabricating the evidence for the Holocaust, torturing and coercing witnesses, etc, as believed by Holocaust deniers, for which not a shred of evidence exists.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that despite unprecedented access to any and all government secrets, none of the Allies could find anything more damning than a few Bischoff memo-like documents to "prove" gas chambers and intent to exterminate. But what does the need to rely on coerced confessions to prop up a ridiculous story have to do with the different standards used to "prove" the holocaust?

Holocaust denial is entirely comparable to belief in alien autopsies.

So why use entirely different standards of evidence to support or debunk either one?

 

[Dogzilla]

Clayton, I have jury duty a week from today, at the courthouse at 1301 Filbert Street (north of City Hall — there's a statue of Frank Rizzo on the front property). I'll get a lunch break around noon, and which point I'm going to go to Maggiano's to eat, where I know a waiter.

I'd like you to meet me there for lunch so I can ask you in person whether you've ever had a gun to your head.

Deal?

Not so veiled threats aside, you seem to stuck on this idea that the Nazis got the Jews to participate in their own destruction by holding a gun to their head.

I don't know if you're speaking literally or figuratively here. If you're speaking literally, you got six million Jews. That means six million guns held to six million heads for as long as those heads are attached to a living body. So you need six million Germans to hold the six million guns to six million Jewish heads. That's alot of men and alot of guns to be tied up while a war was going on--yet another human resources management problem that arises when you're talking about the holocaust.

Now, if you're talking about motivating Jews by holding guns to their heads figuratively, what do you literally mean?

 

[Dogzilla]

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And yet, cannot produce a single instance where this has happened. Sorry if you have now decided that this is unimportant, but that still leaves us the question of why *you* made the claim to begin with.
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And you pretend that questions about specific details about the Holocaust and no evidence whatever for the Exodus are the same.
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No, he doesn't.
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No, with a huge body of evidence that leaves certain specific detail unanswered, it's history. With no evidence at all, it's mythology.
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Why is the distinction between the bodies of evidence 'nonsense'?
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Once again, a fatally flawed analogy, unless you are positing either that those bodies and that wreckage did exist and were covered up, or that Holocaust has been kept secret.
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No, there was evidence prior to operations ceasing. It just wasn't believed.
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No, we're talking about either Roswell being real and covered up, or the Holocaust being fake and entirely made up.
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No, it's applying the *same* standard to different bodies of evidence, with a profoundly ignorant understanding what it means when a Jew says they are Chosen.
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Or maybe people on the one hand specifically mentioning an item requiring no particular skill other than counting (how many?) vs. people clear that they are offering estimates on something a person without a time piece or specific training cannot differentiate (how long?) vs another person who is relaying third hand estimates on something a person without a time piece or specific training cannot differentiate.
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Only to those how are ideologically blinded to the fact that "huge amounts of evidence converging on a broad view with certain specific and unimportant details unanswered" and "no evidence whatever other than a single source whose authorship is unknown, and is unreliable in other respects" are vastly different, and that difference is only "nonsense" when such a person is fully aware of the difference but needs to claim otherwise.
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Yes, you could.

Same standard as anything else.

The difference being that it could be supplied in the case of the Holocaust, but not in the case of, say, Dusty's "dust" or Gage's "nanotherm*te".
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And like so many of your expectations, based on nothing but your need that it be so, and unsupported by reality.
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There's really nothing be said to somebody who says the holocaust isn't held to a different standard by explaining why it's held to a different standard.

But thank you for granting me the right to demand chain of custody information about any physical evidence to want to present for the holocaust. This is really a very limited weapon in my arsenal because you guys don't really offer much in the way of physical evidence anyway. But it's nice that I can use it without sounding like I'm placing impossible demands on you.

Oh, yeah, I liked your Abe Foxman insult.

 

[Dogzilla]

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Ah, so you meant to say "forced to participate in parts of the process which did not include actively killing anyone".

Or perhaps you can point to a single SK who personally pulled the trigger or emptied a canister of Zyklon B?





No?





So, it *is* a lie that anyone is saying that Jewish people were killing Jewish people.

Why did you post this knowing untruth suggesting otherwise?
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This goes back to a discussion we almost had several weeks ago. I can't name any SK who actually dumped the Zyklon into the gas chamber to kill the Jews. What about Germans who did? Are there any Germans who confessed to actually operating the gas chambers? Not the one's who knew about it. Not the one's who herded the procession of doomed souls into the gas chambers. Not the one's who saw somebody else dump the Zyklon. But the one's who donned the gas masks, pried open the cans of insecticide and poured them into the room?