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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Dogzilla said:
Did Ziereis actually give testimony?
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A more important question, one that you keep running from: Where is the rest of your evidence supporting the biblical story of Exodus, or how was the evidence for the Great Crime handled in any way differently than that for the Holocaust?

Or you could just go ahead and admit that it wasn't, and that your statement about double standards in this regard simply reflected your own (lack of) standards...

That ball in your court is planting pecan trees -- did you know they can bear for up to 300 years?
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Robrob said:
Must be nice when you can simply label 50,000 eye witnesses as "liars" and move on.


Throwing babies in the air, shooting at them with machine guns or both?


And if he had mentioned gas chambers, you'd argue against that as well.
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But he didn't mention gas chambers. Do you think he forgot them?

Maybe throwing babies was code for gas chamber but was never written down. Then again maybe there was no spoken code for gas chamber, just a small gesture such as rubbing one's eye. Rubbing both eyes and yawning for gas chambers.
 
Clayton Moore said:
But he didn't mention gas chambers. Do you think he forgot them?

Maybe throwing babies was code for gas chamber but was never written down. Then again maybe there was no spoken code for gas chamber, just a small gesture such as rubbing one's eye. Rubbing both eyes and yawning for gas chambers.
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Do you want a list of the witnesses that do mention gas chambers?

Oh wait...

They're all "degenerate liars", right?
 
Actually, this is another false assumption. Wiesel does mention gas chambers in Night, in the Foreword:

And yet I was still thousands of miles away from thinking that they were to be fuel for the gas chamber and the crematory
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Is the problem that he doesn't describe them in the book proper or say he personally saw them? Because if he was in Monowitz, which we know he was, then he wouldn't have seen any.

So what's the problem again?
 
Wroclaw said:
Actually, this is another false assumption. Wiesel does mention gas chambers in Night, in the Foreword:



Is the problem that he doesn't describe them in the book proper or say he personally saw them? Because if he was in Monowitz, which we know he was, then he wouldn't have seen any.

So what's the problem again?
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The problem is obviously that this all makes too much sense so it's hard for Clayton to deny. Don't worry, though. He'll find a way, no doubt involving appeals to ridicule.
 
Like LC I am still not sure why he would mention the gas chambers, or why the fact that he omits mention of them is of such an over whelming significance to Clayton Moore that he makes pathetic jokes about it to himself.
 
Correction, thank you Wroclaw. He does mention the chambers, obviously not in enough depth for CM however. Hard to please these deniers.

The problem is CM, obviously.

And possibly also the pathological stalking obsession that "some" US deniers have with Elie Wiesel. One of their number, Eric Hunt, springs to mind.
 
Cyrix686 said:
Like LC I am still not sure why he would mention the gas chambers, or why the fact that he omits mention of them is of such an over whelming significance to Clayton Moore that he makes pathetic jokes about it to himself.
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Without the gas chamber lies there was no 6 million, no Holocaust.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Without the gas chamber lies there was no 6 million, no Holocaust.
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So to have 'The Holocaust' we have to now have a specific number. What about 5 million, is that just too bad so sad. Whats the numbers limit you have set that entitles the Jews to commemorate having a few bad years between 1933 and 1945?
 
MG1962 said:
So to have 'The Holocaust' we have to now have a specific number. What about 5 million, is that just too bad so sad. Whats the numbers limit you have set that entitles the Jews to commemorate having a few bad years between 1933 and 1945?
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5.1 minus 2 million allegedly killed by gas chambers leaves what?
 
Clayton Moore said:
5.1 minus 2 million allegedly killed by gas chambers leaves what?
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So that's Hilberg's number minus two million that you refuse to accept were gassed. That leaves us with 3.1 million who were shot or were starved to death or otherwise died of privation in ghettoes and the KZ system.

Shall we assume this was okie-dokie by you?
 
Wroclaw said:
So that's Hilberg's number minus two million that you refuse to accept were gassed. That leaves us with 3.1 million who were shot or were starved to death or otherwise died of privation in ghettoes and the KZ system.

Shall we assume this was okie-dokie by you?
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Sorry the numbers can't be readjusted again. They were associated with countries the Jewish people came from. Too late.
 
Wroclaw said:
Again: Shall we assume this was okie-dokie by you?
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Clayton's too busy celebrating his victory that he got you to say that 5.1 million minus 2 million equals 3.1 million. In his world, this means the holocaust didn't happen. Nobody ever said reality denial was rational or sane.
 
TSR said:
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A more important question, one that you keep running from: Where is the rest of your evidence supporting the biblical story of Exodus, or how was the evidence for the Great Crime handled in any way differently than that for the Holocaust?

Or you could just go ahead and admit that it wasn't, and that your statement about double standards in this regard simply reflected your own (lack of) standards...

That ball in your court is planting pecan trees -- did you know they can bear for up to 300 years?
.
Click to expand...


No, that's more of an off topic question than an important question. I never said there was evidence that Jews didn't lie about their escape from Egypt. I never said evidence for the Great Crime was handled differently than evidence for the holocaust. I said people don't hold the holocaust to the same standards as other historical events. I gave the example of Michael Shermer's appearance on the Phil Donohue where he defended the holocaust against David Cole and Bradley Smith. Shermer said that David Cole had some unanswered questions for which it would be good to have answers but then reminded us that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. That was juxtaposed with Michael Shermer appearance on Penn and Teller's B.S. in the episode debunking the Bible as a historical source. When Penn Gillette and Michael told us that there is no evidence outside of what is written in the Bible for the story of Exodus, a professor advocating the truth of the Biblical account reminded us that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Michael Shermer promptly shuts that down by saying we can't use that form of reasoning in science.

Same man. Same medium. Same maxim. With the holocaust, it's good. With the not holocaust, it isn't.

Several of you then provided further evidence that what I said about a double standard was true by pointing out that the holocaust and Exodus are two different historical events or that Shermer was talking about the micro level vs the blanket level or some other such nonesense.

You want more examples of Shermer's holocaust double standards? Look at his book, "Why People Believe Weird Things." Michael Shermer has some doubts about the authenticity of the stories about a UFO crash landing at Rosewell and the movie "Alien Autopsy" which purports to show actual footage filmed of scientists dissecting the bodies of aliens recovered from the crash site.

When giving us reasons why we should doubt the Roswell story, Shermer said:

"3. Given the number of people who were apparently involved in the
discovery, isolation, transfer, handling, filming, autopsying, preservation, and burial of the bodies, there would have had to be a massive cover-up. How could the government have concealed from the public such a spectacular event? How do you keep all these people from talking?" (p. 92)



So, gathering a few alien bodies and the wreckage of their flying saucer that crash landed in a desolate corner of the southwestern United States outback and was witnessed by a handful of people would be impossible to keep secret but an operation that lasted at least two years and required moving millions of people scattered over an entire continent to a few remote locations in the Polish outback and killing them would not?

How many people were directly involved with the Roswell crash? Maybe a hundred? How many people were directly involved with the extermination of the Jews? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? And the conspiracy of silence was so effective that none of the people involved revealed the true nature and scope of the project until some intrepid war crimes investigators blew the lid off the operation AFTER it had ceased operation and began questioning them about it?

So when we're talking about Roswell, a massive United States government coverup would be impossible but when we're talking about gas chambers and exterminating Jews, a massive German government coverup is perfectly plausible.

I know. I know. This isn't an example of applying a double standard to different historical events because the historical events are different. You can't compare something as trivial as finding solid evidence of life on another planet with the near successful attempt on the life of Dog's chosen children and, thus, on Dog Himself? Whatever.

From the same book, when talking about the discrepancies between eyewitness accounts of the gas chambers, Shermer accurately summarizes what anti-Deniers say by mischaracterizing and dismissing what negationists find problematic.

"Deniers point out that Broad's total of four minutes for the process is at
odds with the statements of others, such as Commandant Hoess, who claim it was more like twenty minutes. Because of such discrepancies, deniers dismiss the account entirely. A dozen different accounts give a dozen different figures for time of death by gassing, so deniers believe no one was gassed at all. Does this make sense? Of course not." (p 230)

No. Of course not! It's looney tunes! Nobody expects all eyewitness testimony to line up perfectly. In fact, if it did, we would need to be suspicious because people are expected to perceive the same things differently. When we're talking about gas chambers.

When we're talking about the film Alien Autopsy, however, the discrepancy between eyewitness accounts becomes more problematic.

"7. The alien in the film has six fingers and toes, yet the "original eyewitness accounts" recorded in 1947 reported aliens with four fingers and toes. Are we facing problems with the eyewitness accounts, problems with the film, problems with both, or two species of aliens?" (p 93)

Or are we facing a person who has nothing more than his own personal incredulty to disbelieve the truth of the Roswell incident and is pretending to be unaware that minor discrepancies in eyewitness testimony is to be expected and even bats**t crazy eyewitness testimony is reliable as long as you can corroborate the not-so-nutty stuff with the not-so-nutty stuff another bats**t crazy eyewitness says?

Or maybe just somebody who isn't quite as critical of holocaustic evidence compared to evidence of everything else?

I don't mean to bag on Shermer because I do like the guy. He's a bit of a media whore but you don't get to be a well-known Skeptic or anything else without some ability at self-promotion. But somebody who likes debunking all the wierd ideas in the world AND holocaust deniers is going to have a problem remaining consistent.

You can see it here on JREF when you read the 9/11 debunking forums. Some of you guys posting here also post over there. Over there, you actually show signs of intelligent life and skepticism. In one response of TSR's to, I guess, a twoofer, we read "Proof of what? Do we know where that physical proof was gathered, and under what circumstances? What about chain of custody? I could offer physical proof that water is wet, but is that relevant?"

You want to know where the physical proof was gathered? under what circumstances? "Chain of custody?!?!" You're asking somebody about the chain of custody? Are you saying I can demand an accounting of the chain of custody for any physical evidence you present as evidence for the holocaust?

I'm going away from my desk for a few hours. When I return I expect to see several of you demanding that I prove that UFOs are real or accuse me of believing the truthers or anything else you can muster to misinterpret what I have said.
 
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