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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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U get an AAA double talk rating.
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So, you also have a personal definition of "double talk".

Care to address the evidence you requested, or are you content to continue to show your arguments and by your apparent definition yourself to be intellectually and financially bankrupt not to mention completely impotent?
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If Germany doesn't invade Poland, the war does not start. Germany's initial act started the dominoes falling. Moreover, it was warned ahead of time what an invasion of Poland would entail. It did so anyway.
the Germans invaded Poland thinking, on balance, that the UK and France would not actually act; so not only did Hitler's Reich start the dominoes falling, it also miscalculated
 
People with great wealth have great power. Power corrupts.
Connect the dots. Deal with it.

How odd.

No links.
No evidence.
No nothing.

Plenty of people have great wealth, they are not all "joos".

All this post says is that you have no evidence, but just hate "da joos".

Racism in whatever form it comes disguised as is despicable to me.
 
Google the Lapland War for details of Germany's invasion of Finland.

Still doesn't work.
That was the Finns evicting the Germans after the Russians told them that was part of the armistice agreement.
The Germans were already there...it wasn't an invasion.
 
How odd.

No links.
No evidence.
No nothing.

Plenty of people have great wealth, they are not all "joos".

All this post says is that you have no evidence, but just hate "da joos".

Racism in whatever form it comes disguised as is despicable to me.

The same old you hate the Jewish people crap.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
People with great wealth have great power. Power corrupts.
Connect the dots. Deal with it.



Adages don't have links. Ask Confucius.
 
The same old you hate the Jewish people crap.
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Yeah, that's pretty much all you post.

How does it feel that all your arguments (and yourself, by your own definitions) are so impotent and bankrupt? What *have* you got against Bill Gates and Warren Buffett -- they aren't Jooos, you know...
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Do these people even think. May I point out Chamberlin most definitely did not want war in the slightest and neither did the British Cabinet. It was hoped and the documentation is massive and abundant that the British garantee to Poland would deter Hitler from attacking Poland.

Now why do those people forget about happenned to rump Czechoslovakia in march 1939, when Hitler, in direct violation of the Munich agreement, marched into rump Czechoslovakia and took it over. The conclusion was made that Hitler could not be trusted. Hence the garantee to Poland. AS for Danzig I suppose these people are ignorant of the documents showing in abundfance that Hitler viewed the whole Danzig thing as a mere pexcuse and his aim was the destruction of Poland as a state, to say nothing of ethnic cleansing. As evident from German behavior in Poland in the winter of 1939/40.

Hitler invaded Poland knowing full well about the British and French garantees to POland and then ignored the ultimatiums. Not surprisingly they declared war.
 
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Yeah, that's pretty much all you post.

How does it feel that all your arguments (and yourself, by your own definitions) are so impotent and bankrupt? What *have* you got against Bill Gates and Warren Buffett -- they aren't Jooos, you know...
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby#Viewed_as_inaccurate


Any debate involving Jews brings out the riddle parade. If you mention Jewish you are being antisemitic. If you mention Israel you're really attacking Jewish people. If you mention Jewish agendas you are antisemitic and or attacking Jewish people.

Is there such a thing as Jewish agenda(s) or not. Is the plethora of Holocaust museums a Jewish agenda?

Is Jewish control of the MSM a coincidence or an agenda?

The Holocaust is basically "Is the coast clear?" a "toe in the door" scenario. If there had been gas chambers the Soviets would have revealed them in a heartbeat.

When the Holocaust pushers saw no one was disagreeing with them, out of respect for the actual suffering of the European Jewish people, they went full tilt bozo with their lying agenda.
 
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This is a kind of mantra from deniers (and their fellow travellers, useful idiots etc) but both of the charges are globally and historically untrue.

Very few countries in the western world have anti-denier laws, and those that do, have most often extended existing laws against incitement to racial hatred to cover the genre of propagandistic writings known as 'revisionism'. It is difficult to see how one can speak of the "belief" in the Holocaust being protected in Germany or France, but not in Britain, Russia, the US, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Italy, and most other countries affected by or close-up witnesses to the Second World War.

Even in countries where such laws exist, they are a recent development, emerging long after the 'revisionists' had made their opinions known. The Gayssot law was passed 12 years after the Faurisson affair; more than enough time to know that Faurisson was an antisemitic hack. Indeed, Faurisson and his cohorts made extremely bad use of the time they had in the public spotlight. Revisionism a la Faurisson was apparently something to be spewed out in endless articles, never a book, never anything substantial.

In Germany, too, the law did not change fundamentally until the mid-90s, when the lex Deckert revision altered the requirements to the 'simple Auschwitz lie'. Before then, you needed aggravating factors, such as the expression of overt antisemitism, to convict. But since the mid-90s, Rudolf and other German deniers, most especially Horst Mahler, have obliged prosecutors time and again by expressing their antisemitism. We have simply never been given a chance to see what a purified German 'scientific revisionism', minus its antisemitic fish-wrappings, would look like.

The judgements against Rudolf, which he has helpfully uploaded to his website (and got translated), make it perfectly clear that he was being prosecuted for his propaganda, not for his alleged science. The story of the emergence of the Rudolf report is actually quite gripping, because it involved so much skulduggery and deception, and offers so many insights into the mentality and modus operandi of the far right in the early 90s. But one thing it cannot be deemed, is scientific.

It's an irony of the chemical pseudo-debate that the multiple tests of the ruins of the crematoria all found cyanide traces. This fact is not in dispute, nor is the quantity of cyanide in much dispute, although justifiable criticisms can be made of both Leuchter and Rudolf for taking less than perfect samples. Leuchter evidently went out of his way to try and find no cyanide, but failed. Rudolf simply skewed his overall set of samples and really did not construct anything like a properly composed sample. That should leap out at anyone reading his tables. The real issue has always been the interpretation of the results, and there the argument has been lost by 'revisionists' in hundreds of discussions. It certainly doesn't help that dozens of cheerleaders have yapped away claiming that the chemical proof is definitive, while ignoring the manifold obvious objections.

Both Leuchter and Rudolf hark back to a time when the western world was more than prepared to air these issues and to listen to 'revisionists'. I have been repeatedly struck by the fact that ideas as obviously nonsensical as Holocaust denial have been considered in some seriousness by a large number of intellectuals, academics as well as, surely, hundreds of thousands of lay readers, and that the conclusion has always been that the ideas are bogus. 'Revisionists' could even get their ideas touted on national television in the US - not the most scientific or rigorous of venues, and a popular choice for many a crank - and could circulate them widely through drumming up a lot of publicity for their 'controversy'.

In the UK as well as worldwide, the Irving-Lipstadt trial was undoubtedly an opportunity for many to sit back and consider the evidence and arguments. As journalists observed, it became a kind of grotesque parlour-game of what-if. Indeed, that what-if game is played all the time whenever HD comes up for discussion. What if they are right? What would be entailed? What would we expect to find and see if these claims were true? That's why the dwindling band of true believer 'revisionists' are confronted continuously with questions they can never answer satisfactorily, like 'what happened to them then?' and 'how could all those SS men have been coerced?', to name but a few.

Most of the refrains that are offered up on this thread from the 'revisionists' are now extremely old. Leuchter was 23 years ago, the first Zundel trial took place more than a quarter of a century ago, the much-touted David Cole video was made 18 years ago, ditto Rudolf's report. Most of the memes are that old as well. Faurisson started blethering on about the Auschwitz swimming pool and the mysteries of how Churchill, Eisenhower and de Gaulle hadn't written anything on the Holocaust about 20 years ago. These things have been hashed out on countless occasions, for at least as long as there has been the modern internet, and it's really unsurprising when they induce such epic boredom today.

Most of the questions asked of deniers are also that old, too. Yet in 2 decades of fairly continuous discussion between deniers and non-deniers, no convincing answers have ever been forthcoming. That is another red flag.

This pseudo-debate has a history, one that for obvious reasons contemporary negationists (and their fellow travellers, useful idiots, etc) wish to ignore and to bury. It is really not difficult to find out about that history. A simple glance at the Wiki page for Holocaust denial does the trick. There are by now several dozen books on Holocaust denial, chronicling its emergence and discussing its claims. One can certainly quibble and dispute individual points and judgements in the books, but it is an undeniable fact that there was this guy named Rassinier, and then other guys like Hoggan, Harwood, Butz and Faurisson, and their writings said x, and their source base was y, and none of that is in rational dispute. So however much the deniers might hate Deborah Lipstadt, she did her primary job in Denying the Holocaust, which was to provide a history of denial.

It's very evident from this history that time and again, serious-minded people have considered the core claims behind 'revisionism'. The impact of the Faurisson affair on intellectuals in the 1980s was considerable. You can find numerous philosophers musing on it. And then, some time in the 90s, these musings trail off, until 'denial' becomes a cliche and a joke, to the point where a Google search for 'Holocaust denial' will associate fully 1/6th of the hits with 'global warming'. That's because after a while, it became more than obvious that the entire gambit was bullflop.

I don't see where there has been a 'taboo' on denial. Quite the opposite: the badly written rantings of a lunatic French professor, as well as other sundry cranks, were given more than their due consideration. The most prominent denier of all time was even allowed to drag a professor through a London libel court to sue her for calling him a Holocaust denier, and then used Holocaust denial arguments to prove his case. As an exercise in surrealism, Irving vs Lipstadt takes some beating.

If there is now a 'taboo' on denial, then that's because several decades of public antics and exposure have worn out what limited welcome it ever had. That's also why the laws changed in France and Germany. It's not difficult to examine Faurisson's writings from 1978 to 1990 before the Gayssot law was passed. Doing so is rather disappointing, because there isn't actually much there, even by 'revisionist' standards.

If denial is 'taboo', then so are many other ideas which have been aired in public and found wanting. The granddaddy of these pseudo-debates is undoubtedly the Velikovsky affair, back in the 1950s. The ideas were lunatic, but persuasive to some, and scientists hated them. They did not handle Velikovsky well, who thus was able to pose as a modern-day Galileo, as all cranks like to do. In the long run, though, the ideas have simply not stood up, and anyone who cites Velikovsky damns themselves entirely. You could not hope to get Velikovsky cited in classes on ancient history or astrophysics or any of the other disciplines he touched on.

Holocaust denial, after all, is one of many Bad Ideas which have swirled around the public sphere since 1945. That places the onus squarely on the shoulders of those who want to advocate it to explain why, after all the due consideration it has received, we are not entitled to conclude it is horsehockey, and treat it accordingly.

I'll quote a post made elsewhere on this very subject, which I think is extremely apposite. The person being addressed was, of course, a Holocaust denier pulling out the violin and whining that his beliefs were persecuted.



At the moment, there's a thread burbling on where a 9/11 Truther is trying to convince the world that a list of 400 names of academics - irrespective of their discipline, expertise, employment status - is somehow significant proof against the conventionally accepted explanation for 9/11. I observed that the Twoofer should consider himself lucky, because Holocaust deniers would be hard pressed to find 40 individuals who qualify as proper academics who have ever endorsed any aspect of 'revisionism'. And that's since the end of World War II, worldwide.

Many of those 40 academics didn't even contribute anything to the genre of 'revisionism', they just lent their names to the masthead of the Journal for Historical Review, back when they thought it added credibility to have a far-right Argentinian economics professor who evidently believed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were literally true as one of their editorial board members. Another guy to mention would be Austin App, professor of English and crank letter-writer, whose contributions to revisionism amount to a few 10s of 1000s of words of unsourced ranting. Or we could mention another professor of English, unlike most of the academics actually still alive, who is a Muslim, and whose contributions to 'revisionism' consist of remarks made on YouTube videos and on the internet. Or even the weighty revisionist contributions of the vaunted Harry Elmer Barnes, whose comments on the Holocaust were ignorant even in the 1960s, and totally lacking any scholarly substantiation.

The pattern across this tiny set of fewer than 40 academics is not difficult to work out: strong ideological motivations, a lot of axe-grinding, countless insults and ad hominems from them, and a whole truckload of crankery, with very little to show by way of solid research outputs.

I'm happy to debate the what-if of an academic, doesn't matter where, deciding whether or not to embrace 'revisionism', but only if the actual track record is factored in. It's not a happy tale for 'revisionists', of course.

But it might just explain why the number of academics taking the plunge doesn't increase very often. Not because they're persecuted, not because they might have career problems, or get jailed, because there are countless academics in perfectly secure positions with tenure and good track records who could, if they wanted to, endorse 'revisionism' and not suffer any of those things. They don't come out and endorse 'revisionism' because it's been weighed in the balance often enough, and found wanting. They don't endorse 'revisionism' because the names bandied around by the lone associate professor of English when touting the genre, like Butz and Staeglich, date back to the 1970s and are totally outmoded even by 'revisionist' standards.

Most of all, they don't endorse revisionism, because there is nothing much to endorse. Academics want to make names for themselves and know that in order to do so, they have to show results, not insinuations, suspicions or vague handwaves. The set of fewer than 40 academics never came up with anything that could be called a genuine result, and most didn't even bother to try. They thought that merely lending their tenured asses to the cause would convince someone or other.

The hypothetical academic of this what-if speculation would know that the subject on which they might choose to opine has been extensively researched. At a very basic level, ignoring past research is an obvious fail. But the mountain of research grows every year. Most of the fewer than 40 academics embraced denial in an era when there wasn't as much available on the Holocaust, although the volume was already considerable by the 60s. That is no longer the case.

And that's why 'incidents' of denial in academia have declined precipitously, although graphing a set of fewer than 40 individuals is not going to produce much in the way of a curve. I count only five guys with any kind of academic affiliations who have stuck their tongues out in the past decade and embraced denial. They would be, Claudio Moffa, a professor of Middle Eastern Studies who has simply hosted conferences and given a lecture in a course, not produced any articles or monographs on the subject; Nicholas Kollerstrom, who is a stretch to include as he was merely an unpaid honorary research fellow in the history of early modern astronomy, but what the hell; the guy is a known conspiracy nut anyhow; Daniel McGowan, an emeritus professor from a liberal arts college and primarily a pro-Palestinian activist; Kaukub Siddique, an associate professor of literature and communications whose YouTube rants have already been mentioned; and let's be generous, 'Thomas Dalton', supposedly some kind of professor at some point or other, who is the one person out of the five who cobbled together a book of sorts on the topic.

That's five guys, who together have produced one book, a few articles for websites, and been filmed speaking in public and had the films put on YouTube.

Gee, I wonder why there aren't more academics queuing up to commit intellectual suicide...


If everything you said about the intellectual bankruptcy of holocaust deniers is true, why would legislation against holocaust denial, or extension of existing laws to include holocaust denial, be a recent phenomenon? You say that holocaust denial had been around long before there were laws against it. The Faurisson affair happened twelve years before the Gayssot laws? In your opinion, Faurisson and his ilk had been given far more credibility than they deserved back in the day and they squandered their fifteen minutes of fame by advancing completely unconvincing arguments wrapped in anti-semitic propaganda?

Why didn't holocaust denial collapse under it's own foolishness when it had it's day in the sun? Under your model, holocaust denial emerged and began attracting attention. It enjoyed unfettered freedom initially and was even given far more serious consideration than it deserved in both academia and the court of public opinion. Unfortunately for the holocaust deniers, the foolishness of their arguments was recognized by everybody as such and the movement lost all respect and began it's slow collapse into obscurity. Then, a decade or so following the rise and fall of the denial movement, politicians opened their eyes to the growing threat of this weakening movement and began passing laws against it. Holocaust deniers are now getting old and dying off. Their arguments are stale and repetitious. There hasn't been any original research recently and no rising stars of the movement. It's universally regarded as a farce. In response, the number of countries banning holocaust denial continue to grow.

If holocaust denial is such a laughing stock, why is it a threat? If it's not a threat, why are there laws against it?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby#Viewed_as_inaccurate


Any debate involving Jews brings out the riddle parade. If you mention Jewish you are being antisemitic. If you mention Israel you're really attacking Jewish people. If you mention Jewish agendas you are antisemitic and or attacking Jewish people.

Is there such a thing as Jewish agenda(s) or not. Is the plethora of Holocaust museums a Jewish agenda?

Is Jewish control of the MSM a coincidence or an agenda?

The Holocaust is basically "Is the coast clear?" a "toe in the door" scenario. If there had been gas chambers the Soviets would have revealed them in a heartbeat.

When the Holocaust pushers saw no one was disagreeing with them, out of respect for the actual suffering of the European Jewish people, they went full tilt bozo with their lying agenda.

Here's the thing: The mere fact that there are some people who are unfairly accused of anti-Semitism doesn't make all such accusations invalid. Furthermore, it is thoroughly illogical for you to believe you are not an anti-Semite just because others have been unfairly accused of same.
 
Any debate involving Jews brings out the riddle parade. If you mention Jewish you are being antisemitic. If you mention Israel you're really attacking Jewish people. If you mention Jewish agendas you are antisemitic and or attacking Jewish people.


None of which has anything to do with the evidence of the Holocaust.


Is there such a thing as Jewish agenda(s) or not. Is the plethora of Holocaust museums a Jewish agenda?


Again, irrelevant to the discussion, which is the weight of evidence demonstrating genocide.


Is Jewish control of the MSM a coincidence or an agenda?


Again, irrelevant and immaterial. We are discussing events of 66-70 years ago, not what is going on today or 20 years ago.

(And in any event you have provided no substantive evidence whatsoever to support your claim of "Jewish control of the MSM". Does this alleged control only exist in the U.S.? Or does it apply to other countries too? Does the supposed Jewish control exist in Canada, Australia, Germany, Britain, Ireland, France, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, New Zealand, Iceland?)


The Holocaust is basically "Is the coast clear?" a "toe in the door" scenario.


Once again you fixate on that one part of the Holocaust to the exclusion of all others.
 
Nevertheless, all the evidence suggests that Britain wanted to have a war over Danzig and the corridor and was supporting the Poles in a hardline stance.

No they didn't. They wanted Germany to not start one.

That might have been the right thing to do, but it means that declaring war was a choice - they were not attacked.

Invading Poland was a choice too.

Interesting that you hold Britain accountable for their choices, but Germany isn't accountable for theirs.

And by interesting, I mean "sadly predictable".
 
Once again you fixate on that one part of the Holocaust to the exclusion of all others.

The ritual of the gas chambers is the lie that put the Holocaust myth over the top. It's horror paves the way for any imagined horror to be valid regurgitation for the liars to spew.

Without the gas chamber lies, the Holocaust lies and phantom numbers necessary to bring the total to 5 million, the Holocaust house of lying cards collapses like a feather.
 
Rhetoric is not an argument Clayton Moore it is just rhetoric. Aren't you ashamed to be writing this over the top witless rubbish?
 
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From your source, emphasis mine:

"Robert S. Wistrich, of the International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, sees reference to the phrase, when used to describe an "all-powerful 'Jewish Lobby' that prevents justice in the Middle East", as reliance on a classic antisemitic stereotype.

Bruno Bettelheim detested the term, arguing 'The self-importance of Jews combined with the paranoia of the anti-Semite had created the image of this lobby.'"

< ed note: oh, *do* tell us "self-importance" is a bad thing, but check your own posts first, ye of "I am more intelligent than every one here". >

"The B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation Commission of Australia states that 'the stereotype of the 'Jewish lobby' is that the Jewish engagement in politics and policy debate is above and beyond the ordinary participation of a group in public policy-making. It paints Jewish involvement as surreptitious, and as subverting the democratic process. It alleges that a 'Jewish lobby', through bribery, bullying and manipulation, pressures politicians to act against their will and duties.'"

< ed note: dp you *really* want to get into the relative strength of the Israeli lobby vs., say, the NRA? >

"Michael Visontay, editor of Australia's The Sydney Morning Herald, wrote in 2003 that 'The way the phrase 'Jewish lobby' has been bandied about in numerous letters implies there is something inherently sinister in lobbying when Jews do it.'"

< As opposed to, say, the NRA or the AARP >

"According to Geoffrey Brahm Levey and Philip Mendes, the term is used in Australia as a pejorative description of the way in which the Jewish community influences the Liberal Party "by talking to its leaders and making them aware of Jewish wishes and views"."

< Oh, HORRORS! They *talk* to the leaders and make them aware... >

"Dominique Schnapper, Chantal Bordes-Benayoun and Freddy Raphaėl write that following the 1991 Gulf War, the term "began to be heard in political life" in France. Vidal writes that the term has been used there exclusively by the French far right as "a phrase that combines standard anti-semitic fantasies about Jewish finance, media control and power; the term is the contemporary equivalent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion"."

< Or are you one of those that maintain that even though the Protocols are known to be a forgery, they still reflect reality? >

"Loyola University Chicago professor Wiley Feinstein wrote in 2003 that "there is much talk of the 'Jewish lobby' in the Italian Press and in Europe", describing the term as "a phrase[] of scorn for Jews and Judaism".

William Safire wrote in 1993 that in the United Kingdom "Jewish lobby" is used as an "even more pejorative" term for "the 'Israel lobby"."

< look up 'pejorative'. >

"Susan Jacobs of Manchester Metropolitan University writes that the phrase "Jewish lobby", when used "without mentioning other ‘lobbies’ or differentiating Jews who have different political positions on a number of questions, including Israel and Palestine", is a contemporary form of the fear of a Jewish conspiracy."

< Boo!!! >
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Any debate involving Jews brings out the riddle parade. If you mention Jewish you are being antisemitic. If you mention Israel you're really attacking Jewish people. If you mention Jewish agendas you are antisemitic and or attacking Jewish people.
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You tried this before, with your unfairly labeled gambit. You may not remember, because you then ran from the issue..
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Is there such a thing as Jewish agenda(s) or not.
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No. Three Jews, Four opinions.
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Is the plethora of Holocaust museums a Jewish agenda?
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No. It is an agenda by those who care about history and countering the distortions of denier idiots.
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Is Jewish control of the MSM a coincidence or an agenda?
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Neither. It is an anti-semitic fantasy, used to excuse your hate.
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The Holocaust is basically "Is the coast clear?" a "toe in the door" scenario. If there had been gas chambers the Soviets would have revealed them in a heartbeat.
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Because ... ?
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When the Holocaust pushers saw no one was disagreeing with them, out of respect for the actual suffering of the European Jewish people, they went full tilt bozo with their lying agenda.
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Neither you nor any other denier has shown any such respect.

And the only lies which have been documented here are *yours*.
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Rhetoric is not an argument Clayton Moore it is just rhetoric. Aren't you ashamed to be writing this over the top witless rubbish?

I'm certainly not ashamed of having the moral fortitude to speak the obvious truth.


So you're saying the Soviets wouldn't have been all over something else for which they could openly persecute Germans?


So you're saying Churchill, de Gaulle, and Eisenhower wouldn't have been all over something else for which they could openly castigate Germans?
 
Without the gas chamber lies, the Holocaust lies and phantom numbers necessary to bring the total to 5 million, the Holocaust house of lying cards collapses like a feather.
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And if you refuse to clap, Tinkerbell stays dead, I suppose.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby#Viewed_as_inaccurate
Is there such a thing as Jewish agenda(s) or not. Is the plethora of Holocaust museums a Jewish agenda?
No.

And what does this have to do with the evidence for the Holocaust? It seems that (1) you can't disprove the Holocaust, so you shift gears and start spinning up a hoax, which you also can't prove or (2) you deny the Holocaust because of your prior biases and delusions.

Personally, I think both (1) and (2) apply in your case.
 
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