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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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However even the most rabid of Hoaxster will sotto voce admit that at least a third of the transports were taken for labour.

Taking an overcoat does not equal death.
This is a strawman: the basic argument is that those not fit for labor were put to death, and that those fit for labor were either worked to death, died due to ill treatment, or were killed when they were no longer fit for work. This argument was developed at Wansee and in your favorite report from Jaeger, is clear from the evidence concerning ghettos like Kovno, Warsaw, and Vilna, and was articulated by, for example, Wisliceny in his interrogation. It is not something admitted sotto voce but a fundamental part of the basic narrative. But you would have to read the basic narrative and not take cheap shots at it based on popular myths to understand this.

Taking an overcoat from someone you have shot into a pit at Ponar and Liepaja equals death.
 
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It would be so unlike Jews to be guilty of any antisocial behavior that would alienate them in their home community.
now of course it seems to have escaped your attention that the Nazis invaded a number of countries and immediately decided to shot the Jews in them to death. wherever they found them, no matter who they were or what they were doing. and in other countries they occupied the Nazis rounded Jews up and sent them by rail to their deaths. just because. not on account of behavior.

your argument regarding German Jews seems to be that they brought their expulsion and deportation, not to mention the discrimination they suffered, on themselves. care to elaborate on this antisocial behavior and its remedies?
 
Taking an overcoat from someone you have shot into a pit at Ponar and Liepaja equals death.

This seems a very difficult point for Hoaxsters to grasp.
Taking an overcoat does not equal death. Shooting someone in a pit at Ponar or Liepaja does equal death. Should be easy to grasp.

Since we know the Germans took overcoats in situations and did not shoot or gas them, then a list detailing 290 000 overcoats and substantially fewer pairs of shoes and even fewer sets of underwear does not imply death.

Now if you have managed to find 9 large mass graves in Treblinka, that would be a different story.
 
It would not be a different story. You would insinuate something else. You know of all of the information concerning Treblinka. It does not boil down to, "mass graves."

Does it bother them any that this behavior to the casual reader gives the strong impression that they are ghoulish and obnoxious? Little Grey Rabbit gave off a similar vibe yesterday when he was asking about human remains at one of the 9.11 plane crash sites in another thread.
 
You don´t understand, Cyrix... impressions and vibes are irrelevant. The only things that are relevant to Holocaust Deniers is to exonerate their heroes, the Nazis, and demonizes the object of their hatred, the Jews. Everything else - honesty, civility, evidence, reality - can go pound sand.
 
Well if we chuck the impressions and vibes over the side, then all that's left is obnoxious ghouls.
 
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Ca. 10,000 French children were deported by your beloved Nazis because they were perceived to also be Jewish.

Can you tell us what "anti-social behaviour" each of these children engaged in to deserve this fate?

No?

Half of them plus one?

No?

*Any* of them?




Please speak up -- we didn't quite catch that.






Oh, you cannot cite a single instance of anti-social behaviour in any of these children?

What, then, do you suppose they had done to deserve being deported from their homes like that?


Can you tell us what evidence you have that each of these children were, or even just felt that they were alienated?

No?

Half of them plus one?

No?

*Any* of them?




Please speak up -- we didn't quite catch that.






Oh, you cannot cite a single bit of evidence to support this lie. either?


How completely expected.





Karl Jäger details the killing of ~1500 Jewish children in just one day.

Can you tell us what "anti-social behaviour" each of these children engaged in to deserve this fate?

No?

Half of them plus one?

No?

*Any* of them?




Please speak up -- we didn't quite catch that.






Oh, you cannot cite a single instance of anti-social behaviour in any of these children?

What, then, do you suppose they had done to deserve being deprived of life itself like that?






I could keep going, you know -- but these examples and your running away from them will tell everyone everything they need to know about your views -- as if it weren't already obvious...

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Evidence? Links?
 
Overlooked facts of the Holocaust myth are mail, salaries, and the medical facilities in the camps. People often die when not treated for the simplest malady. Why would people be treated and saved in one area of a camp and healthy people killed in another?
 
Does he know what arbeitjuden are? The problem with explaining that to Clayton however is that even if it is to be explained to him, he'll forget all about the explanation and then come up with the same objection again or just try to diminish the fact. Someone else will have to tell him...
 
Evidence? Links?
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Not that you have the right to ask, given that you only rarely even attempt this for your own claims (probably because those claims, evidence and links are consistently shown to be, how did that go again? Oh, yeah: crapola) but the information on the French children is all available from the Klarsfeld Foundation book "French Children of the Holocaust". I'd offer you a link, since the entire text is available on the Holocaust History Project site, but you continue to lie about the reliability of that site, so I recommend you actually obtain a copy of the dead-tree edition.

Don't worry -- the book thingy doesn't bite.

The source of information regarding the Jaeger report is (strangely enough) the Jaeger report itself. Once again, the full text and everything you need to know about it are available online, along with scans of the report in the original German.

You *do* read German, right?


Your turn: you can find the actual Jaeger report, where can *we* get the actual Krege report? Will you link to a specific lie on the part of THHP? Or does the whole evidence / link thingy only matter to you when you are desperate to avoid actually *discussing* things like the anti-social behaviour and alienation of these children?
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Well, at least some had an inkling. Weren't there something like 20 plans/attempts to assassinate hitler, and a lot more that were never given voice or written down. Hell, hitler is long dead, and my dad STILL wants to shoot him in the face.

I'd take a piece of that...
 
It would be so unlike Jews to be guilty of any antisocial behavior that would alienate them in their home community.

Tell you what: Why don't you take that Nazi garbage and get lost? Or, you know, meet me for lunch and we can "discuss" it?
 
Overlooked facts of the Holocaust myth are mail, salaries, and the medical facilities in the camps. People often die when not treated for the simplest malady. Why would people be treated and saved in one area of a camp and healthy people killed in another?

Sometimes the guards got boo-boos.
 
Rudolf

In three well-known writings, using his own name, Rudolf has with some show of reason maintained that the chemical arguments - though inconclusive, and not so strong as the engineering arguments- do tend to weigh heavily against the existence of the gas chambers. Now if these three writings can be freely be published in Germany, then I have completely misunderstood the situation. If they cannot be freely published in Germany, then everything I say holds good. The rest is pretty much irrelevant.

Nickterry seemed to suggest that academics in Germany can say whatever they like about the Holocaust - provided that a court of law is satisfied that their research is genuine. That for Cosair is freedom. I also thought Nickterry to imply that the court judgement was adversely influenced by Rudolf’ right wing propaganda. Otherwise these views have no bearing on the freedom of speech question. I agree that anyone who wants to convince a lay public of a complex technical argument would do well to get it peer reviewed. But there would be no need to evade censorship if there were no censorship, so they would indeed do doubly well to avoid any mention of Auschwitz. When James Roth found that anonymous samples sent to Alpha Laborotories had come from Auschwitz, he quickly conceptualised the possibility of “surface reaction” that might explain away the findings. This “possibility” later found happy acceptance as a courtroom dogma - and was then entirely forgotten.

Nickterry accuses me of “lionising” Rudolf as a latter-day Galileo. I don’t know what reason he has to say this. Unlike Galileo, Rudolf will probably be remembered as an obscure crank. But I am willing to draw the parallel. Galileo was a thinker whose conclusions went considerably beyond the available evidence and he got into trouble for making satirical fun of the Pope. Had the optical evidence that later vinidicated him proved that he was a just a crank, then his imprisonment in my view would have been no less reprehensible. In any case his imprisonment would rightly have weakened faith in the authority of the learned geocentric professors. They all had very good scholarly reasons for saying what they said, but they also had a discernible motive for not saying anything else. A lay person should no longer trust them simply because they were sheep-skinned academics who had the right insignia of erudition. Nearly all the qualified scientists of our own day are emphatic that man-made climate change is upon us. I take their word for it. I accept their conclusions without understanding their reasons for holding them. Climate scientists are experts with no discernible motive to deceive themselves, and they have powerful lobby groups up against them. The climate deniers, absurdly, are given equal space. However, if some powerful lobby goups had made “climate denial” punishable by law, and if deniers were granted no space at all, then I would withdraw my trust. There would be a burden of proof to show that there was no potential denier who had been silenced by fear; a difficult burden to meet. Beliefs that are protected by law or taboo should in any case be automatically suspect. .

In the murky privacy of the internet I have often argued, rightly or wrongly, that much of the generally accepted evidence for gas chambers is bad evidence. I go no farther than that. I cannot confidently deny the existence of gas chambers, and I have myself no doubt that the Nazi harrying of the Jews, even minus the gas chambers, amounted to genocide. I have never seen "irrefutable" proof that the Holocaust did not occur. Nevertheless, I use a pseudonym. My motive for doing so is fear. My fear is that using my own name would not be a smart career move, and it would not go down well with my family. I have not read Rudolf’s pseudonymous writings and do not see any point in doing so. But I certainly don’t blame him for using a pseudonym. If Staeglich had used a pseudonym he might not have lost his his pension and his PhD (but then Staeglich was nationalist, my dears, so that’s all right then. It’s not as if he went to prison). If Faurisson had used a pseudonym he might never have been beaten up by Jewish terrorists. If Serge Thion had used a pseudonym he might not have lost his pension and his job. If Butz had used a pseudonym he might now be a full professor.

Butz and Rudolf are not professors of history, but neither was Pelt or Pressac or Zimmerman, and this should not be held against them. It would of course be absurd for me to make any judgement about the abstruse algorithm that has been named after Arthur Butz. Electrical engineering like climate science, is an esoteric mathematical discipline in which fairly objective canons of proof have been established. But I think it would be just as absurd of me to say to Butz “Look, I have a history degree, I have spent years grubbing about in archives, so you are not qualified to pronounce on anything I have written. Keep out” History is not a science, although it should do its best to be scientific. Historians by and large are not as intelligent as philosophers of physicists, and their talents, among the few who have talents, are closer to those of a gifted novelist. Most of us most of the time are just harmless drudges. The educated class is a servile class, however, and the writing of human history is often a continuation of politics by other means. Wherever there is glimpse of ideology or partiality, then anyone should feel free to wade in. I think this remark even holds for technical authors such as Green and Roth. I do not trust Rudolf’s impartiality and I would not trust theirs.

...........
The treaty of Versailles was indeed a harsh. Lenin said it was even worse than Brest Litovsk. Though less well-known, 1945 seems to me yet worse. When Stalin moved Poland westward he took away about a fifth of Germany’s territory. Combined with the expulsion of the Czech Germans it put millions of homeless people on the move. The Versailles treaty imposed a literal guilt clause on the German government. The Occupation imposed a sort of guilt clause upon the entire German people, in order to to justify excluding them from even a nominal say in their own fate. The original intention of the British, following the colonial model, was for a long twenty year occupation during which the benighted Germans would slowly be re-educated and civilised. Was 1919 worse? What rescued the Germans from all this nonsense was not the voice of reason but the facts of big power conflict. The Soviets became the designated bad guys, and the Good German made his appearance in the propaganda movies. Nevertheless the German people went thru three years of desperate humiliation and many years of vassaldom to Nato. Though I have sympathy for the German people of 1945, whose first democratic stirrings were crushed by the invading powers, I have little sympathy with German nationalism and I am happy that the Germans as a whole want no more of it. You may wonder how I can have much sympathy for Rudolf and little sympathy for German nationalism. That, reader, is because you are a knucklehead.

In addition to the bankruptcy of the Nazis, I suppose another factor in the collapse of German nationalism and militarism was the collapse of colonialism. Before the war the German and the Japanese ruling classes felt they had been excluded from the colonial feast and could fight for a share. Post war, the only way to the feast was to sell cars. Some people at Codoh used to assure me that modern German is ruled by “the jews” If that is the case, they have made a good job of it.
 
GP might find the interview of Eberhard von Thadden before the IMT commission interesting

Question: Did you visit any other camps?
Answer: No. I seriously tried, because we were also interested in visiting other camps, but office EICHMANN always refused visits to other camps, even after my repeated explanations, that the propaganda in foreign countries about the alleged cremation of Jews was very unwelcome from a political standpoint and that we therefore would be very much interested in visiting Auschwitz etc. EICHMANN answered me that Auschwitz as at the time, one of the most important German industrial plants for the manufacture of military secret weapons, and for that reason, because secret weapons were being manufactured there, it was under no circumstances possible for me to visit, for reasons of defense. When the reports about Auschwitz increased in the foreign countries, I tried harder and harder to urge, that foreign delegates or I myself could go to Auschwitz. EICHMANN told me at one of the conversations of this kind, that he well understood, that we considered this foreign propaganda unwelcome. On the other hand, he had to admit to me, naturally as a top secret, thus something needing to be kept secret, that he considered these completely false rumors which were circulating, to be a certain amount of guarantee that Auschwitz would not be bombed by foreign air forces.

He also said, that with the well-known weakness of the German Luftwaffe, we would, whether we liked it or not, have to put up with this unpleasant foreign propaganda; but I could be sure that they were completely false. He also said that the need for workers in our armament industry was so great, that from that standpoint alone we would be absurd to believe in this extermination of Jews. Every Jew was medically cared for at the express order of Gruppenfuehrer GLUECKS and received according to the work he performed additional rations, so that workers would be maintained for industry.


While there was a lot on munitions work at Auschwitz I am not aware of any particular secret work. I think the synthetic fuel plant at Bunawerk was probably seen as particularly important for the war effort - and also particularly vulnerable to air attack.
 
Yes, well lets just say that if you could combine your 290 000 overcoats with 9 100 by 50 by 10 meter mass graves at Treblinka, then that would be powerful evidence. However in the absence of such evidence then it is pretty worthless.

I see.....so you are unaware that the Jews were forced to undress before being gassed at Treblinka? The overcoats were not put into the mass burial pits. You really are an "entry level" holocaust denier aren't you! Clayton will bring you up to speed......
 
I see.....so you are unaware that the Jews were forced to undress before being gassed at Treblinka? The overcoats were not put into the mass burial pits. You really are an "entry level" holocaust denier aren't you! Clayton will bring you up to speed......

Now you are just being silly.

Its a shame, I had always pegged you as one of the few people here who genuinely DID believe in the Holocaust. But obviously I was wrong.... How depressing it must be to be signed up to cause that is so weak that your only tactic is to create foolish strawmen.
 
This seems a very difficult point for Hoaxsters to grasp.
Taking an overcoat does not equal death. Shooting someone in a pit at Ponar or Liepaja does equal death. Should be easy to grasp.

Since we know the Germans took overcoats in situations and did not shoot or gas them, then a list detailing 290 000 overcoats and substantially fewer pairs of shoes and even fewer sets of underwear does not imply death.

Now if you have managed to find 9 large mass graves in Treblinka, that would be a different story.
What is impossible for you to grasp is the fact that at places like Ponar, for example during the Great Provocation executions, and Liepaja Jews were shot after disrobing; their valuables, including overcoats, were stolen as part of the killing operations. I didn't add, but could have that the Germans despoiled Jews long before killing them, as in the ghetto fur actions, strong-arming of Jews and theft of their property, Aryanization campaigns, and other acts of plunder that were not part of killing operations. That is really not a difficult distinction, and someone who has read as vastly on the Holocaust as you must know that this is the basic argument, not sotto voce admissions that Jews able to work were selected for labor or that theft took place also apart from murder. Really.
 
Is it just me or is this GwynPaine talking about Leuchter when he mentions "engineering reports"?
 
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