Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[little grey rabbit]

And the 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II at the end of the rail spur, near the empty pits, suggests other evidence exists.

Would I be correct in assuming you have never visited Treblinka II?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Removed to appropriate forum

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

How does this person not get suspended for vile cursing a forum member?

A.) You should consider asking that in the appropriate sub-forum.

B.) You got destroyed on your "subjugated Germans" claim so now you're trying to draw attention to something else.

 

[LemmyCaution]

And now you're making the argument that if the Germans were capable of building an impressive rail transport infrastructure, murdering a few thousand innocent civilians every day wouldn't present a problem.

By that logic, since the United States also build an impressive rail transport infrastructure, we must've murdered six million Jews as well.

Dogzilla, I suggest instead of making more comments about SoT's posts based on your ignorance of the topic, you go back and read Clayton Moore's posts laying out his "logistical" objections to the Holocaust, to which SoT is responding. To my reading of SoT, he is answering that part of Clayton Moore's argument which states that the killing could not have occurred because the logistics of transportation, manpower, and camp organization, during wartime, made it impossible to concentrate the Jews (for murder or any other purpose). You are conducting a different discussion with yourself, about the extermination program itself.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Dogzilla, I suggest instead of making more comments about SoT's posts based on your ignorance of the topic, you go back and read Clayton Moore's posts laying out his "logistical" objections to the Holocaust, to which SoT is responding. To my reading of SoT, he is answering that part of Clayton Moore's argument which states that the killing could not have occurred because the logistics of transportation, manpower, and camp organization, during wartime, made it impossible to concentrate the Jews (for murder or any other purpose). You are conducting a different discussion with yourself, about the extermination program itself.

Yeah sure. The post was way scatterbrained. There's a huge difference between managing trained soldiers and managing civilians. One big difference is a chain of command. Guess which one has a chain of command?

 

[Gwynpaine]

Elie Wiesel imposter?

There is reasonable doubt and there is unreasonable certainty. One is a sign of scientific virtue, the other of dogmatic vice. I accused Mattogno of being unreasonably certain that Elie lied about his number. Others are equally certain that the Auschwitz number 7713 did belong to Elie, their evidence being that he said it did. They are also quite certain that 7712 belonged to his father Shlomo , their evidence being that Elie said it did. They are entirely confident that the brothers Lazar born 1913 and Abram number A7712 are inventions or false memories fabricated by Gruener, so confident that they feel no need to prove it. Why bother to prove something that cannot be rationally doubted, if it is believed only by a few crackpots? It matters not to them that no unproblematic document places Elie in Auschwitz or Monowitz or Buchenwald. It matters not to them that one canot fit these documents to Elie without the noteworthy coincidence that the only surviving camp records of his birthdate are both products of clerical error. It matters not to them that Elie’s present signature seems unrecognisable. It matters not to them that the only known documents assign the number 7712 to a man fourteen years older. It matters not to them that the only known document assigns the number 7712 to a man named Abram - just as the fellow Monowitz survivor Gruener said it did.

As a matter of fact these things don’t matter much for me, the difference being that I have set out my reasons why I don’t think they matter much. To be rational is to give reasons. A crucial coincidence of clerical errors, though unlikely, seems less farfetched than any imposture scenario I have seen. Signatures do deteriorate and evolve. I regard the whole tattoo business as absurd, for reasons given. It is the only presence of an Abram 7712 that leaves me with a twinge of doubt. I am not just saying that this datum is an unexplained puzzle. Unexplained puzzles need not create the least twinge of doubt. Even if scientists had so far failed to explain why a flag appeared to flutter in a windless moonscape (I know they have explained it, so don’t write in) then this and kindred phenomena would remain no more than unexplained puzzles. For me they would not be enough to create reasonable doubt about the moonlanding, because the countervailing arguments are so powerful. The really powerful arguments in history are not technical or forensic but psychological and social. In this case, for example, the argument that the Americans would never attempt (successfully, it is claimed) to hoodwink the Soviet space agencies with tricks that failed hoodwink amateurs who live with their mothers That alone does it for me, but I don’t intend to discuss the matter. Here I intend to discuss only Wiesel.

If the transport lists are merely to count as an unexplained puzzle, what are the powerful countervailing arguments? One can hardly argue, in refutation of Gruener, that no certified and sanctified survivor of Monowitz – which was indeed a place of terrible suffering - would ever need to publish tall tales about it. It would be impossible to demonstrate generally that the only Auschwitz imposters are the ones that have already been found out. It would be even harder to demonstrate that Elie is a man with an unswerving passion for truth and contempt for fame and riches. Has anyone tried? That would for me be a powerful countervailing argument. Character is evidence. It might count for much if it were possible to connect Eli with the trade of locksmithing but as far as I know this has not been done. Monowitz, an industrial plant with 10,000 slaves and a million padlocks, would certainly have needed a locksmith’s workshop. But if he and his is father did land relatively easy work I suspect he is likely to have suppressed the fact in order to maximise his suffering in the camp - as compared with the likes of easy riders like Primo Levi. It might count for something if Elie and Levi could be proved to have had many meetings and talked over old times back in the camp. But any account of such meetings is likely to come from Elie himself and the agenda for such meetings would probably be Elie’s own spiritual journey, which is his favourite topic. However, anyone in a big population gets to know about 150 people or so, and some of Elies Monowitz friends have probably survived to offer a convincing reminiscence of him.

Betrayed by memory, I find that I misrepresented Faurisson. Faurisson’s argument is simply that Elie cannot be regarded as a witness to the gas chambers, because he hardly mentions them and working in Buna-Monowitz he would have been far away from them - even supposing they existed. Faurisson was not making an argument from silence.

Though not a witness to gas chambers, Elie was indeed a witness to a literal holocaust. He claimed on his first day of induction in Birkenau to have seen a lorry load of babies thrown into a fire and so felt an impulse for suicide in order to avoid an agonising death in the flames. It would be unreasonable to doubt this. Burning people alive was a frequent habit of the SS, apparently, as many forgotten postwar trial testimonies show. One English judge got into hot water for refusing to believe it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nice fabrications. . . .

These explanations for the unexplainable lapses into humanitarian acts by the "genocidal" Germans are pure lunacy.

The 250,000 number is lunacy also.

One should notice, if not completely numbed by the bombast of lies and exaggerations, that all the explanations of the alleged mass executions contains some ritual aspect that makes the killing more involved and labor intensive.

You clearly disagree with the conclusions reached by Daniel Blatman in his recent book, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide (2011). Could you outline your objections to his treatment, specifically how he handled sources and evidence and explain why you disagree with him and deem his findings lunacy and fabrications? Thanks in advance.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Yeah sure. The post was way scatterbrained. There's a huge difference between managing trained soldiers and managing civilians. One big difference is a chain of command. Guess which one has a chain of command?

Please restate your logistical argument so that it is coherent rather than based on rhetorical questions and a need for us to read your mind. Thank you.

 

[MG1962]

Of course it's possible to kill 5,500 people all across Europe every day. If you want to prove that that actually happened, however, you need more than evidence of how many people went somewhere on a train every day.

It is your side who brought up the argument of logisitcs. No one has even hinted this is the only evidence available. To simply then abandon the point with a hand wave does no than prove your arrogance

 

[Wroclaw]

Nice fabrications.

You misspelled 'history'.

(1) And yet another shift of what happened.

No, all the histories say what I wrote.

(2) And yet they were given a choice to march or wait for the Russians.

Only the ones in sick bay, whom it was assumed would die on their own.

These explanations for the unexplainable lapses into humanitarian acts by the "genocidal" Germans are pure lunacy.

Really? Why?

The 250,000 number is lunacy also.

Actually, the evidence if for isn't even in dispute by deniers.

One should notice, if not completely numbed by the bombast of lies and exaggerations, that all the explanations of the alleged mass executions contains some ritual aspect that makes the killing more involved and labor intensive.

Not really.

 

[MG1962]

Yeah sure. The post was way scatterbrained. There's a huge difference between managing trained soldiers and managing civilians. One big difference is a chain of command. Guess which one has a chain of command?

Which ones had the guns?

 

[Corsair 115]

Of course it's possible to kill 5,500 people all across Europe every day. If you want to prove that that actually happened, however, you need more than evidence of how many people went somewhere on a train every day.

By that logic we must also see the records which prove the German army was moved. After all, without those records, it's just hearsay that many German divisions were present on Eastern front!

 

[Clayton Moore]

Though not a witness to gas chambers, Elie was indeed a witness to a literal holocaust. He claimed on his first day of induction in Birkenau to have seen a lorry load of babies thrown into a fire and so felt an impulse for suicide in order to avoid an agonising death in the flames. It would be unreasonable to doubt this. Burning people alive was a frequent habit of the SS, apparently, as many forgotten postwar trial testimonies show. One English judge got into hot water for refusing to believe it.

It's difficult to make sense of the main body of your vacillating meanderance.

But true to form you showed, you bared your colors by insisting the most gruesome lie imaginable was BAU/SOP.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Yeah sure. The post was way scatterbrained. There's a huge difference between managing trained soldiers and managing civilians. One big difference is a chain of command. Guess which one has a chain of command?

Which ones had the guns?

Nuff sed.

 

[Dogzilla]

A.) I was actually referring to their entire wartime economy and the level of militarization of their population.

B.) That's just @#$%ing stupid.

A) If you meant the entire wartime economy, you should have said that instead of symbolically representing it through the railroads. But the United States also moved to a wartime economy so the analogy is still apt.

B) Well.....yeah, it is. As is much of the evidence supporting the gas chambers when you remove it from the holocaust and put it into any other context. That's why I said it.

 

[Corsair 115]

B) Well.....yeah, it is. As is much of the evidence supporting the gas chambers when you remove it from the holocaust and put it into any other context. That's why I said it.

I offer the same challenge to you as I did Clayton: please explain why this move to prove the Holocaust never happened isn't being spearheaded by Germans themselves seeing as they are the ones most affected by it and they are the ones closest to the surviving original records and documentation of the Nazi regime.

Thus far Clayton has avoided giving anything resembling a coherent answer. Perhaps you'll give it a try?

 

[Dogzilla]

And the 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II at the end of the rail spur, near the empty pits, suggests other evidence exists. Doesn't it? This is called "supporting evidence". Are you aware of this human ash at Treblinka II?

I am aware of reports of human ash covering the Treblinka site after the camp was closed. Because of the nature of "human ash" and the lack of any forensic report commensurate with such a finding, I question the validity of said ash field. But it would not matter because you can't calculate volume from area. How deep was this alleged 20,000 square meters of "human ash?"

While we are talking about railways.....let us ask the Treblinka Station master what happened......

Franciszek Zabecki was the Station Master at Treblinka I throughout the entire existence of the Treblinka extermination camp.

"This procedure was repeated twice more, until all sixty wagons had been shunted into the camp, and out again. Empty they returned to Warsaw for more 'settlers'."



http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/zabecki.html

Of course the wagons went back to Warsaw empty! Why would you take a trainload of Jews back to the ghetto after they had been deloused?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Of course the wagons went back to Warsaw empty! Why would you take a trainload of Jews back to the ghetto after they had been deloused?

Since you know so much, perhaps you will tell us where did the Nazis take the Jews after "delousing"?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Would I be correct in assuming you have never visited Treblinka II?

Would I be correct in assuming you dont look at evidence?
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. ........was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The Examining Judge The State Attorney Lukaszkiewicz Maciejewski


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html

 

[Saggy]

A real Jewish hoax denier ..... probably the only public one ..... and an excellent writer to boot..... you probably can't find a better synopsis of the entire hoax than this relatively short essay by Paul Eisen .... ' The Holocaust Wars' ....

http://www.righteousjews.org/article18.html