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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Clayton Moore said:
That's just crap. Soldiers apart from the main force fighting the Russians manage to kill millions of people without raging opposition?
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How much opposition would you like? You've been repeatedly told that, once they understood what was in store for them, behind the front lines, Jews in many places, not the least of which were Vilna and Warsaw, armed themselves and resisted their fate. They were largely unsuccessful because they were fighting one of the most powerful armies in the world, along with a paramilitary force (the SS) that didn't feel confined by rules of war. How would you exactly expect them to win?

More so, why don't you just tell us what kind of resistance you would have expected?

Your continued belittlement of the fortitude of the Jewish people is pathetic.
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And that's called projection, what you're doing up there.

The ferocity of the Jewish people in the Russian revolution
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Of whom? I think you're talking about a single Jew, i.e., Trotsky. The rest of them were no more ferocious than any other fighting force.

and pre Israel aggression, and today's JDL says passive wasn't gonna happen
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And on these two, you misunderstand cause and effect, clearly.
 
Another thing that you're simply not taking into account, Clayton, is the extent to which Jews being rounded up into ghettoes truly believed, at first, that they would probably survive. You must remember that being placed in ghettoes was not exactly a new occurrence in the Jewish experience in Europe. Within recent memory for the older generations were pogroms across the pre-Soviet Union and Poland. Random violence was a regular thing.

So if you're a 40-year-old Jew in 1941, and your grandparents had perhaps survived pogroms, and they had had grandparents who had lived in a ghetto and so there was some kind of oral history accompanying your experience, you were likely to believe that what was happening to you was terrible and that you'd be lucky to survive, and the Nazis might even be like the Spanish and would kick you out of Europe, like they said they would, but it wouldn't really be the end because, for three thousand years, it hadn't been the end. That's a powerful alleviation factor to many's mental anguish.

Because you've clearly done zero reading on the Holocaust, I'll share with you something in Hilberg that I always remember on this point. Hilberg talks about a letter written by a rabbi in the part of Poland that was occupied by the Soviets between 1939 and 1941. Hearing the Nazis were invading, this rabbi actually wrote a letter to whom he assumed would be the occupying force welcoming them. Sure, the Nazis were Jew-haters, he knew, and that was no small deal, but at least they weren't into completely suppressing religion, like the Soviets had. This poor rabbi actually thought he'd probably be put in a ghetto, but at least he'd be able to pray openly again.

He was right on one count, at least.

You are grossly underestimating the extent to which the Nazis were different from other generations of anti-Semites. You are also grossly overestimating the extent to which even the most hearty resistance would have been useful. As Nick points out above, European Jews were behind enemy lines and highly concentrated into ghettos before they really knew what awaited them beyond the ghetto walls. Those who found out did resist — just not successfully.

There is nothing in the above that you can prove to be untrue. You can either handwave or accept that fact (particularly as I've said little or nothing about extermination in the above). So it would behoove you, in the interest of your appearing reasonable, to accept the above as true.

Having done that, however, you will no longer be able to persist with the idiotic labeling of others as underestimating Jewish resistance. I sincerely hope you now get that, although I suspect you won't.
 
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
That's just crap. Soldiers apart from the main force fighting the Russians manage to kill millions of people without raging opposition?

...​

The ferocity of the Jewish people in the Russian revolution.
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Lets see the Nazis and the German Army was able to shoot hundreds of thousands of captured Russian troops and starve about 2 million to death after the invasion of Russia. S.S. and German units were able to range all over Belorussia and the Ukraine in "anti-partisan" operations slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians, (the actual total is probably in the millions), with very small casualties. I could of course mention the slaughter of much of the non Jewish Polish Intellgensia, including thousands of Priests. To say nothing of Polish civilians enmass. I could mention the mass deportation of milllions of forced labour workers to the Reich to work in horrible conditions.

The Nazis were able to do all that with minimal casualties campared to the truly spectacular suffering inflicted.

And do you deny that the Soviets under Stalin were able in the 1930's to arrest, deport and murder millions? All with out massive resistence.

As for the other comment it is typical of antisemitic literature to characterize the Bolshevik Revolution as "Jewish", and of course to characterized the violence and savagery shown by the Bolsheviks as "Jewish". In fact this standard anti-semitic view views the Bolshevik Revolution as a "Jewish" coup d'etat putting "the Jews" in control of Russia. All sides behaved viciously in the Bolshevik Revolution and the civil war that followed. It can be argued that the Bolsheviks were more savage and more ruthless but what this as to do with being "Jewish" is beyond me. I note that you do not mention the savage pograms commited by some of the "Whites" during the civil war that killed c. 150-200,000 Jews. I also note that you do not mention the detarmined antireligious drive of the Bolsheviks that closed down Synagogues, Yeshivas and involved wholesale attacks on Jewish institutions and customs.

All in all standard pap.
 
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Pacal said:
Lets see the Nazis and the German Army was able to shoot hundreds of thousands of captured Russian troops and starve about 2 million to death after the invasion of Russia.
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Moreover, the Nazi regime had a plan to starve to death as many as 20-30 million civilians had its war in Russia been concluded successfully. The residents of conquered Russia were to be starved to death to make way for German colonization. This "Hunger Plan" wasn't even a secret. It was fairly common knowledge within the Reich and plenty of documentation outlining the starvation plan was widely disseminated.
 
LETHAL Garbage

Wroclaw said:
Except you can't prove that. You'll spew out some garbage that's been proved untrue 100,00 times.

Who cares?
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:) And yet, here it is... proven true.


First, the Case:

From Krasnaya Zvezda, July 1942:

“The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day … If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another — there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans killed by you. Kill the German — that is your grandmother’s request. Kill the German — that is your child’s prayer. Kill the German — that is your motherland’s loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through. Kill.” --Ilya Ehrenberg


And The Lethal Outcome:

“All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction.”
--Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 1, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn


That Lethal Outcome... As Clearly Shown In A German Film, 1944:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x7t5hJeq0U

Nemmersdorf, where females from 8 to 80 were gang-raped to death and nailed--CRUCIFIED--to barn doors. (Who cares about Matthew 23, you ask? Obviously Ehrenburg's listeners did... why else did they crucify them? True Prophecy ALWAYS happens. As it did, in Nemmersdorf. Ehrenburg's hands are stained with this blood... the blood of those they believed to be Christian. As Jesus says, He will send His Prophets who to be killed by those who have forever killed all of the righteous of the earth.)


More Historical Fact:

"And that civil aviation flier, assistant pilot of a "Douglas," looks like a dyed-in-the-wool anti-Soviet. Not only did they find a complete collection of Yesenin in his possession, not only did he talk about how well-to-do and well fed people were in East Prussi until we got there--but during the course of a public debate in an aviation unit, he got into a public argument with Ilya Ehrenburg about Germany. (In view of Ehrenburg's position at that time one may conclude that the pilot was proposing gentler treatment of the Germans.)3 At a debate--a public argument! Court-martial: ten years imprisonment and five of disenfranchisement.

footnote, page 301:

3. In Ehrenburg's memoirs you will find no trace of such trivial incidents. Anyway, he might not have known that the man arguing with him had been arrested. He merely offered a fairly standard Party-line reply at that particular moment and then forgot about it. Ehrenburg writes that he himself "survived by lottery." Well, that little lottery had marked numbers. If they were rounding up your friends, you had to stop phoning them in time. If the wagon shaft turned, it was necessary to turn too. Ehrenburg heated up hatred for the Germans so insanely that Stalin had to pull him up short. If you feel toward the end of your life that you helped establish a lie, then what is required to justify yourself is not memoirs but an immediate bold self-sacrifice."
--Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 2, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

A fascinating book, actually. He tells us that those who were used to being THE denunciators... well... what goes around actually DID come back around... with a vengeance! A preview.
 
Fairly Common...

Corsair 115 said:
Moreover, the Nazi regime had a plan to starve to death as many as 20-30 million civilians had its war in Russia been concluded successfully. The residents of conquered Russia were to be starved to death to make way for German colonization. This "Hunger Plan" wasn't even a secret. It was fairly common knowledge within the Reich and plenty of documentation outlining the starvation plan was widely disseminated.
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Where might one find such wonderful documentation? Was it mentioned in the wonderfully accurate original documents accompanied by actual accusers, at the one-sided War Crimes Trials?

Was it perhaps coded, like Ike's "Other Losses"?
 
If Only The Names Had Been Changed

Rincewind said:
So, Clayton:

What would you do if a couple of Nazis with guns tried to force you out of your home, and then to get into a railway wagon?
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Solzhenitsyn says he actually had to give them directions to... Oh, wait... you said Nazis, not NKVD... never mind... :o

Seriously... that cattle car... was it painted red, like they were in Russia? The pics have been renamed to protect the guilty, more often than not. Gotta love pre-Photoshop CIA work, right? ;) They just about HAD to make up the proof to go along with the plan, didn't they. The boots on the ground only saw what they were told they would see... Never dawned on THEM that the boycotts and the bombings made walking skeletons of the whole darn country... including the prisoners. And so, things like Dachau Massacres happened without so much as a slap on the wrist to follow. Little did those GI Joes guess what typhus victims look like, either.

So... I still want to know which Communist got control of the bucket of wedding rings that were being used to identify the cremated-alive Germans... did THIS fact somehow morph into what was done to Jews, too?
 
catscratch said:
Where might one find such wonderful documentation? Was it mentioned in the wonderfully accurate original documents accompanied by actual accusers, at the one-sided War Crimes Trials?

Was it perhaps coded, like Ike's "Other Losses"?
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Nice job of poisoning the well there. If Nuremberg documents are somehow inadmissible in your mind, where would you propose somebody provide the documents from?

Regardless, for other non-Nazi's reading, this gentlemen provides an English translation of the Tribunal documents along with No.s in case you want to check their accuracy:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/2515/The-Nazi-Hunger-Plan-for-Occupied-Soviet-Territories#.Tjh96GGPwng
 
catscratch said:
Solzhenitsyn says he actually had to give them directions to... Oh, wait... you said Nazis, not NKVD... never mind... :o

Seriously... that cattle car... was it painted red, like they were in Russia? The pics have been renamed to protect the guilty, more often than not. Gotta love pre-Photoshop CIA work, right? ;) They just about HAD to make up the proof to go along with the plan, didn't they. The boots on the ground only saw what they were told they would see... Never dawned on THEM that the boycotts and the bombings made walking skeletons of the whole darn country... including the prisoners. And so, things like Dachau Massacres happened without so much as a slap on the wrist to follow. Little did those GI Joes guess what typhus victims look like, either.

So... I still want to know which Communist got control of the bucket of wedding rings that were being used to identify the cremated-alive Germans... did THIS fact somehow morph into what was done to Jews, too?
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A whole lot of words to say essentially nothing. How about you answer the question unless you now doubt the fact there was even "resettlement" let alone extermination.
 
Pacal said:
So Bradley Smith is a "Stand up Guy". Really!?. . .

Utter crap. On the same page you can find Bradly Smith congradulating himself for not being an anti-semite. It is compulsively funny.
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This utter crap must run in the family of these stand up guys: David McCalden does the exact same thing in the beginning of his antisemitic "study," Exiles from History. When a writer sets out with the claim not to be antisemitic, or not to be crazy, or no to be whatever, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in what is to come: In Exiles McCalden doesn't disappoint, the book being just as bad as he warned.
 
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albion said:
Nice job of poisoning the well there. If Nuremberg documents are somehow inadmissible in your mind, where would you propose somebody provide the documents from?

Regardless, for other non-Nazi's reading, this gentlemen provides an English translation of the Tribunal documents along with No.s in case you want to check their accuracy:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/2515/The-Nazi-Hunger-Plan-for-Occupied-Soviet-Territories#.Tjh96GGPwng
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A good, recent scholarly account of the Hunger Plan is in Alex J Kay, Exploitation Resettlement Mass Murder: Political and Economic Planning for German Occupation Policy in the Soviet Union, 1940-1941 (Bergahn 2006), pp 113, 120-128, 131, 133-140, 162-163, 186-187.

http://books.google.com/books?id=l2...&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
I still don't understand why catscratch insists on bringing Stalin's atrocities into this thread. Well, actually I do understand it. It's a common denier technique to derail the discussion. What I don't understand is why he think he'll get away with it.

Catscratch, if you want to discuss Stalin's atrocities, start a new thread. This thread is for discussion about the Holocaust, meaning the systematic murder of European Jewry (and about 5-10 million other "undesirables") by Nazi Germany before and during WWII. Further posts by you pertaining to Stalin's atrocities will be reported as off-topic.
 
Pacal said:
So Bradley Smith is a "Stand up Guy". Really!?

This is a guy who says such things as:

Jewish greed, Jewish monomaniacal self-regard, joined with the self-defeating and degenerate acquiescence of both by non - Jews throughout the American political system, media, and academic worlds, ensure that the taboo against questioning any of this murderous nonsense is enforced.[/QUOTE]

http://bradleysmithsblog.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

The wording is a bit blunt, but the assertions are right on target.
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Gene Alley said:
This is a guy who says such things as:

Jewish greed, Jewish monomaniacal self-regard, joined with the self-defeating and degenerate acquiescence of both by non - Jews throughout the American political system, media, and academic worlds, ensure that the taboo against questioning any of this murderous nonsense is enforced.
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[snipped link to Nazi blog]

The wording is a bit blunt, but the assertions are right on target.
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So, you assert that all Jews are greedy, that Jewish monomaniacal self-regard is real, and basically that Jews controll the media, political system and the academic world?

And you wonder why you are called anti-semite?
 
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