Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

There is simply no need to study the holohoax in any detail . . .

And this is precisely why no serious, or even semi-interested, person will ever take you, or "revisionism," seriously. The problem you face is that there are people who study these things in detail, and, judging from your performance in here, you don't have a single substantive, specific, or relevant reply to what they either ask or argue, with detailed backup.

I will agree that there was

there was no holohoax at Auschwitz;

indeed, no hoax at all: what there was at Auschwitz, in addition to a concentration camp and slave labor, was an extermination facility in which mostly Jews were murdered en masse from 1942 to 1944. Further, it flies in the face of widely available facts that historians are not "left with" the AR camps: they research and report on and debate Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chelmno, the open-air shootings, the hunger plan, T4 and 14f13, the ghettos, deportations from across Europe, SK 1005, Jewish responses to the genocide, Nazi racial and health policies, and much more. This is so evident that only someone who doesn't study these things in detail needs have it spelled out for him.

Revisionism is an embarrassing occasion for all concerned, both those who advocate it and those who reply to its loopy methods and assertions.

 

[LemmyCaution]

There is simply no need to study the holohoax in any detail . . .

I really do find this staggering in its simplicity and its candor, but . . .

 

[MG1962]

The hoaxers are left with the Reinhard camps, where there is not a shred of physical evidence and no Nazi camp records to examine, to make up any story they choose. But, there is nothing to support it save the usual lies of the Jews.

Care to explain?

 

[TSR]

Yes. Wow, you're a quick learner.

And now why don't you give us just a single name - you hear it right, just a single name - out of those ca. 34,000 Dutch Jews who were deported to Sobibor and are not known to have returned, with evidence that they lived after WW2's end, with their whereabouts.

That's all I ask. And that, Saggy, will be way more evidence for your position than all the fallacies and lies you've been posting here thus far.

.
With a few moments work I have three names. Since one of them was a Dutch Olympic gold medalist, I assume that had she not survived as records show it would have been documented by now even though I cannot now state with certainty where she retired to, nor give a date of death.

3 out of 34K Dutch Jewish victims, 3 out of 44 survivors total (most of which escaped during the Sobibor uprising, something else of which Saggs is willfully ignorant.)

Tell us, Saggs -- if every one of the tens of thousands at Sobibor survived, why were they there long enough to plan and execute that uprising, and why do we have so few people that can be documented as having survived there who did *not* escape?
.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Wroclaw View Post
Clayton, I'll give you fifty bucks if you can tell me what distinguishes neoconservatism from other types of conservatism.

Neoconservatism is little more than an overlay or replacement of conservative foreign policy with an aggressive imperialistic/communist style foreign policy. Kristol and other American communists recognized it was time to jump ship as the American Left was going nowhere so they followed the power money to the Republican party.

Where is my $50?

 

[Clayton Moore]

In "democratic" Britain 2 men are in prison for distributing a comic book called TALES OF THE HOLOHOAX which is a satire of holocaust claims http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2010/02/tales-of-holohoax-and-denmarks-anti.html The same media and governments which made a big deal about the Muhammad cartoons are silent on this matter. Obviously a double standard. If it is a free country, a true democracy then people should be able to satirise anything they like. Any period of history (including the holocaust), politics, religion etc.
The "offensive" comic book in question TALES OF THE HOLOHOAX takes aim at outlandish claims such as "Martin Gilbert is one of the most respected high priests of the Holohoax religion. In his catechism, St. Gilbert states that:In the spring and summer of 1942 hundreds of thousands of Jews were being gassed every day". If 200 000 Jews were indeed gassed daily by the nazis for the 17 weeks of spring and early summer that would be 23 800 000 Jews gassed just in those 4 months alone! What a miracle this must have been since there weren't 23 million Jews in the whole world at that time. Read the whole comic here www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/TalesV2.pdf

What's his point?

 

[dafydd]

What's his point?

You can't see it? Try thinking for a change.

 

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Wroclaw View Post
Clayton, I'll give you fifty bucks if you can tell me what distinguishes neoconservatism from other types of conservatism.

Where is my $50?

.
The rest of us assumed Wroclaw meant not what fantasies you have about neo-conservatism, but what the *real* difference would be for the rest of us. You failed to do so.

Speaking of fail, where is Krege's raw data, and where's that single documented lie on THHP? These questions scare you so much you can't even acknowledge that they have been repeatedly asked. I have another $50 each for you if you offer evidence-based answers to these questions.

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule 12.

.

 

[Wroclaw]

Originally Posted by Wroclaw View Post
Clayton, I'll give you fifty bucks if you can tell me what distinguishes neoconservatism from other types of conservatism.

Where is my $50?

I'll give it to you over lunch.

 

[000063]

I think your Protocols said that

Sounds like it's on the money in the USA as we post. Are you saying that Jews do not or should not control the MSM?

Considering that the Protocols are a hoax, and even if they weren't they're only a guidebook...

Of course you think European Jewish people, except the German Jewish people, were stupid and millions of them, over a three year period, just went to "death" camps without realizing the first 500,000 were exterminated.

As has been pointed out several times, the official story is that many of them were forced at gunpoint. Also, many of the Jews realized what was going on and left or hid, most notably the family of a little girl named Anne Frank.

 

[Hans]

There is simply no need to study the holohoax in any detail
.

a TRUE Saggy classic !

Yep you don't need to know anything about something to deny it!!!

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

I have not. I gather that the 105,000 are the names of Dutch Jews deported by the Nazis, and that that is all that is known about their fates.

As DDT pointed out, not all of these people were Dutch citizens.

Ursula Stern, for an other example, was born in Germany but nevertheless returned to the Netherlands after surviving first selections and then the revolt in Sobibor. She remained in occupied Poland until liberation but came back via Odessa and Marseille. Eventually she went to Israel. Where she was known as Ilana Safran. Do you think that information helps your case?

The inlaws of Jules Schelvis were Polish. They had settled in Amsterdam. Where their daughter was born, in 1923, but found no safe haven after German invasion and occupation. Where he returned without them after liberation. We know how he got back. [Binnen de Poorten] We know he doesn't help your case. Especially because you can't explain what happened to them.

Not all of the people mentioned in the Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands were deported either.

I mentioned Nico Henny Lindeman earlier. A Holocaust denier thought his fate could be used as evidence for the presence of gassed Jews in the East. This denier apparently felt confident enough about his discovery that he used the word "undoubtedly". "Undoubtedly he perished in Utena, Lithuania" was the denier claim - but Nico Lindeman was never deported from the Netherlands. He died near Hengelo where he had been in hiding (onderduiker) from the nazis and their collaborators during the occupation of the Netherlands. He was buried near Utrecht a city in the center of the Netherlands. Utrecht is what it says for the place where he perished on the hand written page of testimony about his fate in the Shoah. He has a known personal grave, that's why his name can be found on some lists but not on other lists. We can correct the mistakes in these lists. Can you? What do you add?

Now you know a little bit about the fate of a Dutch man named Nico Henny Lindeman persecuted because he had Jewish heritage. Can you explain why that Holocaust denier put Nico Lindeman on his short list? Am I missing something?
Also, can you tell me a little bit about the other people in Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands?

Specifically, Can you provide any names that fit these criteria? A person who,
a. Is mentioned by name in the Transport Lists for Sobibor, and
b. Was alive after 1945, but
c. Isn't already on the official list of known survivors I quoted above

You are after all proposing an alternative history, are you not?

Here is a name for ClaytonMoore. Michieltje (Machiel) Prins. That's how Janneke de Moei mentions him on page 90 of her book "Joodse Kinderen in het Kamp Vught. [Jewish Children in the Camp Vught] If the fate of Jewish children is of interest to you and you think it is a story of survival that is a bad place to start. Lists of names on every page. Lots of things not known about these children. Can you add something new? About Siegfried Bloemendaal 2 jaar [two years old] to Carollina de Boet 1 jaar on page 15, where she also wrote "Judenaufangslager wordt Judendurchgangslager" With a date to put on your timeline.

But, by no means only focus on the Netherlands. Don't forget what Erwinl would like to know about Jews from all over Europe.

 

[ddt]

With a few moments work I have three names. Since one of them was a Dutch Olympic gold medalist, I assume that had she not survived as records show it would have been documented by now even though I cannot now state with certainty where she retired to, nor give a date of death.

If you're just looking for people who got deported to Sobibor, just enter "Sobibor" in the site's search engine. It gives you 34,140 pages.

Olympic Gold medalists - this page of the Dutch broadcasting corp. VPRO lists 4 gold medalists from the 1928 Amsterdam Olympics and one coach; 2 of the medalists and the coach were killed in Sobibor, the other 2 in Auschwitz.

For clarity: the challenge for Saggy is to find a survivor among those claimed to have been killed in Sobibor. You can find the list of survivors in post #3645 above, courtesy an earlier post of BluespaceOddity (and you can say the whole challenge was his/her idea in the first place).

3 out of 34K Dutch Jewish victims, 3 out of 44 survivors total (most of which escaped during the Sobibor uprising, something else of which Saggs is willfully ignorant.)

Saggy ignorant of the uprising? I can't imagine. Two films made about it:
Escape from Sobibor (with Rutger Hauer in the main role)
Sobibor, October 14, 1943, 4 p.m.

Order them from Netflix or from your local videostore, Saggy. But first, concentrate on your challenge. You have until Monday 11 July, 18:00 GMT to come up with one name of a hitherto unknown Sobibor survivor, with evidence they survived. One single name.

 

[Clayton Moore]

As DDT pointed out, not all of these people were Dutch citizens.

Ursula Stern, for an other example, was born in Germany but nevertheless returned to the Netherlands after surviving first selections and then the revolt in Sobibor. She remained in occupied Poland until liberation but came back via Odessa and Marseille. Eventually she went to Israel. Where she was known as Ilana Safran. Do you think that information helps your case?

The inlaws of Jules Schelvis were Polish. They had settled in Amsterdam. Where their daughter was born, in 1923, but found no safe haven after German invasion and occupation. Where he returned without them after liberation. We know how he got back. [Binnen de Poorten] We know he doesn't help your case. Especially because you can't explain what happened to them.

Not all of the people mentioned in the Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands were deported either.

I mentioned Nico Henny Lindeman earlier. A Holocaust denier thought his fate could be used as evidence for the presence of gassed Jews in the East. This denier apparently felt confident enough about his discovery that he used the word "undoubtedly". "Undoubtedly he perished in Utena, Lithuania" was the denier claim - but Nico Lindeman was never deported from the Netherlands. He died near Hengelo where he had been in hiding (onderduiker) from the nazis and their collaborators during the occupation of the Netherlands. He was buried near Utrecht a city in the center of the Netherlands. Utrecht is what it says for the place where he perished on the hand written page of testimony about his fate in the Shoah. He has a known personal grave, that's why his name can be found on some lists but not on other lists. We can correct the mistakes in these lists. Can you? What do you add?

Now you know a little bit about the fate of a Dutch man named Nico Henny Lindeman persecuted because he had Jewish heritage. Can you explain why that Holocaust denier put Nico Lindeman on his short list? Am I missing something?
Also, can you tell me a little bit about the other people in Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands?

Specifically, Can you provide any names that fit these criteria? A person who,
a. Is mentioned by name in the Transport Lists for Sobibor, and
b. Was alive after 1945, but
c. Isn't already on the official list of known survivors I quoted above

You are after all proposing an alternative history, are you not?

Here is a name for ClaytonMoore. Michieltje (Machiel) Prins. That's how Janneke de Moei mentions him on page 90 of her book "Joodse Kinderen in het Kamp Vught. [Jewish Children in the Camp Vught] If the fate of Jewish children is of interest to you and you think it is a story of survival that is a bad place to start. Lists of names on every page. Lots of things not known about these children. Can you add something new? About Siegfried Bloemendaal 2 jaar [two years old] to Carollina de Boet 1 jaar on page 15, where she also wrote "Judenaufangslager wordt Judendurchgangslager" With a date to put on your timeline.

But, by no means only focus on the Netherlands. Don't forget what Erwinl would like to know about Jews from all over Europe.

Let me be truthful with you if I may. The Germans and the Poles would no more be party to face to face killing of millions of children than the Brits or Americans freaking would.

So wake the hell up.

So when you talk about the freaking Holocaust you're not freaking talking about Hitler and Himmler ravings and misinterpretations of a sentence or two they may have made.

You're talking about normal Germans and Poles who hugged their own children one day, were knee deep in a war the next, and after, if they survived, were again hugging their own children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_World_War_II_Memorial

Freedom Wall

The Freedom Wall is on the west side of the memorial, with a view of the Reflecting Pool and Lincoln Memorial behind it. The wall has 4,048 gold stars, each representing 100 Americans who died in the war. In front of the wall lies the message "Here we mark the price of freedom".

That means more American servicemen died than Jewish people perished, mostly of disease or hunger, in the labor camps. My Uncle Rob came home in a wheel chair for life from that war. There were no stairs or steps in his house. There was a long ramp outside. He fixed watches and he was grumpy. My family said he never even talked about the war.

 

[ddt]

That means more American servicemen died than Jewish people perished, mostly of disease or hunger, in the labor camps. My Uncle Rob came home in a wheel chair for life from that war. There were no stairs or steps in his house. There was a long ramp outside. He fixed watches and he was grumpy. My family said he never even talked about the war.

While your uncle Rob came home without the use of his legs, Otto Frank came home without his wife and two children. Instead of posting complete non-sequiturs, you might better start providing evidence for that first sentence and give names and whereabouts of murdered Jews you claim survived the war. How hard should it be to come up with a single name out of millions, if your claim were true?

 

[Oystein]

Let me be truthful with you if I may. The Germans and the Poles would no more be party to face to face killing of millions of children than the Brits or Americans freaking would.

So wake the hell up.

So when you talk about the freaking Holocaust you're not freaking talking about Hitler and Himmler ravings and misinterpretations of a sentence or two they may have made.

You're talking about normal Germans and Poles who hugged their own children one day, were knee deep in a war the next, and after, if they survived, were again hugging their own children.
...

Are you saying massacres don't happen? Ever? Anywhere?
There was no My Lai? There was no genocide in Rwanda? There never was a bloody sunday in Ireland? No one killed women and children in Sabra and Shatila? The boys of Srebrenica went unharmed?
And all because adults, soldiers are fundamentally incapable of committing atrocities against children?

If only the world were such a place!

 

[LemmyCaution]

Let me be truthful with you if I may. The Germans and the Poles would no more be party to face to face killing of millions of children than the Brits or Americans freaking would.

So wake the hell up.

So when you talk about the freaking Holocaust you're not freaking talking about Hitler and Himmler ravings and misinterpretations of a sentence or two they may have made.

You're talking about normal Germans and Poles who hugged their own children one day, were knee deep in a war the next, and after, if they survived, were again hugging their own children.

Along with Saggy's bragging that he doesn't care to inquire about details (this part of the thread is showing why, because the details about Dutch Jews are making evident how little your lot know), and Saggy's attribution to these details that they are Jewish lies, your moment of being truthful with us is an example of massive ignorance.

First, as Oystein indicates, you demonstrate your ignorance of general history and of what people have shown themselves capable of. In American history alone, on very large scale, we have the removals of the American Indians and the institution of slavery as cases in which, yes, Americans were capable of barbaric acts. Along with war crimes as mentioned by Oystein, to which I would add the shelling of Japan as an example, including both the conventional shelling of civilian areas and the atomic attacks on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These atrocities were not "face to face," of course, although I am not sure why you added that criterion. Many would of course list Dresden for the Brits. In these and other cases, people carried out actions resulting in widespread civilian loss of life and/or extreme suffering.

Second, your ignorance of the basic work on the Nazi genocide is simply staggering. I doubt that one non-revisionist poster in the thread is thinking of the speeches and vocabulary of Hitler and Himmler when discussing the fate of Jewish men, women, and children in the camps and in the shooting pits of the East. On the latter, to take one example, there is a healthy literature, and debate, about what made Germans killers. What is probably the most important work on this is by Christopher Browning, with the title Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. Works by Omar Bartov, Edward Westermann, and others explore the same question. A well known collection of primary sources also dealing with the ordinary participants in genocide is Klee's The Good Old Days. These works sit in a larger set of studies of how ordinary people can come to participate in genocide, and these works look at ideology, personal and career motivations, conformist pressures, and a wide range of factors.

In fact, the cases of Germany and the United States, to choose two examples, show that "advanced" and "modern" cultures can produce people capable of atrocities including carrying out of genocide and that barbaric acts are by no means the province of "other" cultures, as your argument suggests.

Really, Clayton, you don't seem to know the first thing about the topics you post on.

 

[little grey rabbit]

As DDT pointed out, not all of these people were Dutch citizens.

Ursula Stern, for an other example, was born in Germany but nevertheless returned to the Netherlands after surviving first selections and then the revolt in Sobibor. She remained in occupied Poland until liberation but came back via Odessa and Marseille. Eventually she went to Israel. Where she was known as Ilana Safran. Do you think that information helps your case?

The inlaws of Jules Schelvis were Polish. They had settled in Amsterdam. Where their daughter was born, in 1923, but found no safe haven after German invasion and occupation. Where he returned without them after liberation. We know how he got back. [Binnen de Poorten] We know he doesn't help your case. Especially because you can't explain what happened to them.

Not all of the people mentioned in the Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands were deported either.

I mentioned Nico Henny Lindeman earlier. A Holocaust denier thought his fate could be used as evidence for the presence of gassed Jews in the East. This denier apparently felt confident enough about his discovery that he used the word "undoubtedly". "Undoubtedly he perished in Utena, Lithuania" was the denier claim - but Nico Lindeman was never deported from the Netherlands. He died near Hengelo where he had been in hiding (onderduiker) from the nazis and their collaborators during the occupation of the Netherlands. He was buried near Utrecht a city in the center of the Netherlands. Utrecht is what it says for the place where he perished on the hand written page of testimony about his fate in the Shoah. He has a known personal grave, that's why his name can be found on some lists but not on other lists. We can correct the mistakes in these lists. Can you? What do you add?

Now you know a little bit about the fate of a Dutch man named Nico Henny Lindeman persecuted because he had Jewish heritage. Can you explain why that Holocaust denier put Nico Lindeman on his short list? Am I missing something?
Also, can you tell me a little bit about the other people in Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands?

Specifically, Can you provide any names that fit these criteria? A person who,
a. Is mentioned by name in the Transport Lists for Sobibor, and
b. Was alive after 1945, but
c. Isn't already on the official list of known survivors I quoted above

You are after all proposing an alternative history, are you not?

Here is a name for ClaytonMoore. Michieltje (Machiel) Prins. That's how Janneke de Moei mentions him on page 90 of her book "Joodse Kinderen in het Kamp Vught. [Jewish Children in the Camp Vught] If the fate of Jewish children is of interest to you and you think it is a story of survival that is a bad place to start. Lists of names on every page. Lots of things not known about these children. Can you add something new? About Siegfried Bloemendaal 2 jaar [two years old] to Carollina de Boet 1 jaar on page 15, where she also wrote "Judenaufangslager wordt Judendurchgangslager" With a date to put on your timeline.

But, by no means only focus on the Netherlands. Don't forget what Erwinl would like to know about Jews from all over Europe.

That seems a pretty reasonable challenge, and I have to confess I can't met it.

However, I also have a reasonable challenge.

I will provide the names of say 50 Cohens living in the Netherlands and BSO can contact them and find out how they or their parents/grand parents survived the war.

Here are the first 25

Edited by Tricky: 

List edited pending proof of permission to publish addresses.

They can't all have had a secret annex, can they?

 

[Mondial]

The official holocaust story is full of lies and inconsistencies. If the holocaust is true why is it necessary to protect it with laws not applicable to other historical events? www.ihr.org/news/112705HoloDenial.html It is the only "conspiracy theory" that will get you jail time. The following essays and research show several of the main reasons why revisionists are skeptical of the holocaust. www.codoh.com/found/found.html

 

[dafydd]

I have not. I gather that the 105,000 are the names of Dutch Jews deported by the Nazis, and that that is all that is known about their fates.

So it was fine and dandy that the Nazis deported them? What right did those scumbags have to do that? Why do you hate Jews?