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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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MaxMurx said:
That is clearly obvious (offenkundig) a totalitarian tool in a so called free democracy. Other known totalitarian anti democratic tools are released after terrorist attacks, laws cutting off liberties of the citizens under the cover of anti terror legislation.
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Or a country overcompensating for something they did in the past.

Assuming, of course, your post *hadn't* been wrong.

Clayton Moore said:
It has to do with the Holocaust mythters insisting that German Soldiers were mindless zombies
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Nope.

capable of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men.
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Sadly, yes. The human mind can rationalize all sorts of things, as the Milgram Experiment demonstrated. There were people in the experiment who were actively and vocally protesting, yet they kept pressing the button.

And the methodical ritual slaughter of many millions more of non Jewish children and women, and men.
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Arguments from incredulity noted.
 
FETZER: “I'm inclined to believe the numbers killed [in the Holocaust] have been exag

I’m posting this here because on JREF Fetzer is mostly known for his 9/11 ‘research’ and the overlap between the “truth movement” and Holocaust denial/'revisionism' has been a theme here.

“I am not a Holocaust denier (even though I'm inclined to believe the numbers killed have been exaggerated).”

James H. Fetzer, May 13, 2011
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17658&st=495&p=225498


I called him on it here on the thread linked below.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17862&pid=229264&st=0&#entry229264

The OP:

“I am not a Holocaust denier (even though I'm inclined to believe the numbers killed have been exaggerated).”

James H. Fetzer, May 13, 2011 - 01:44 PM (GMT), JFK Assassination Research--and a public relations disaster, post #502

What an extraordinary comment Fetzer, what exactly led you to be “inclined to believe” that? You do know that the Holocaust is one of the most studied events in history, don’t you? Several reputable scholars have dedicated all or most of their careers to studying it and despite using different methods they have reached similar conclusions 5 – 6 Jews and a similar number non-Jews (or in one case 11 million Gentiles). But you a non-historian who admits a lack of expertise in mid-20th century history presume to know better, please elaborate.

Martin Gilbert http://books.google.com/books?id=PnE6TXjt4hkC&pg=PA245 [at least 5.75 million Jews “and at least an equal number of non-Jews”] pgs 11, 245

Lucy Dawidowicz http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Jews-1933-1945/dp/055334532X#reader_055334532X [5.93 million Jews] pg 403

Niewyk and Nicosia: http://books.google.ca/books?id=lpDTIUklB2MC&pg=PA45 [“more than 5 million Jews…as many as 17 million victims” i.e. about 11 million non Jews] pg 45

Wolfgang Benz http://books.google.com.br/books?id=_jvBBB22IlIC&pg=PA66 [5.29–6.2 million Jews] p66

Berenbaum: http://www.amazon.com/Mosaic-Victims-Non-Jews-Persecuted-Murdered/dp/1850432511 , http://lincolnwood.suntimes.com/news/5161666-418/non-jewish-victims-of-nazis-educators-focus.html
[5 million non-Jews]

See also:

Israel Gutman. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust [5.59–5.86 million Jews]
Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews [5.1 million Jews]
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Wroclaw said:
When I teach about this period, invariably I have to address the issue of how these things happened — not just the Holocaust, mind you. And invariably I use the analogy of the frog in water that slowly comes to a boil or I talk about "how slowly the noose tightened around their necks."
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One of the things that stands out in my reading of the period is the almost undecleared civil war that existed from the early 20s. People were fed up with the levels of violence and political mayhem and never ending economic issues. Germans thought they were giving a little up to gain simple stability

It's very easy to be incredulous that the German people could have gone down the road they did, but only with the benefit of hindsight that the world has had since the war.
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In the 1990's Australia toyed with rewriting its constitution. The original idea was get the document fleshed out and then take it to the people to decide emergency powers. The Australian people threw a complete tanty and basically said, we remember Hitler, you show us the complete document and then we will consider what we want.

Does believing this make me naïve? Maybe. Does it make me idealistic? Perhaps. Do I like to pose rhetorical questions and then answer them? I do.
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Absolutely not - It just means you understand the concept of context in studying history
 
Well, I can see how the number of Jews killed by the Nazis may have been less than some other populations one might mention, like the brain cells that that fat doddering pig has poisoned in excessive quantities of alcohol.

Come on now, people. What do you expect from some ranting sack of crap who thinks that Rotten Rudy wired the towers up to the Hutchison Energy of a hurricane hundreds of miles away and moving farther by the minute?
 
Good find; I have linked at SLC. As a reminder, Uncle Fetzer noted the similarity between Holocaust Denial and 9-11 Troof at the Chandler conference in 2007:

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
 
Lenbrazil said:
“I am not a Holocaust denier (even though I'm inclined to believe the numbers killed have been exaggerated).”

James H. Fetzer, May 13, 2011
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The numbers killed are not exaggerated, they are pure fantasy. The Jews gassed at Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, Muthausen, all now admitted by all to be pure fantasy. And the 5,000,000 non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? Pure fantasy, D. Lipstadt reveals that S. Wiesenthal just made up the number .... read about it here ....

http://www.jewishreviewofbooks.com/publications/detail/simon-wiesenthal-and-the-ethics-of-history
 
Saggy said:
The numbers killed are not exaggerated, they are pure fantasy. The Jews gassed at Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, Muthausen, all now admitted by all to be pure fantasy. And the 5,000,000 non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? Pure fantasy, D. Lipstadt reveals that S. Wiesenthal just made up the number .... read about it here ....
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I'll give you fifty bucks if you can produce a single history book that reports gas chambers having been used at Belsen or Buchenwald.

We've dealt with Dachau and Mauthausen a dozen times already. You seem fond of repeating yourself.
 
Saggy said:
The numbers killed are not exaggerated, they are pure fantasy. The Jews gassed at Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, Muthausen, all now admitted by all to be pure fantasy. And the 5,000,000 non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? Pure fantasy, D. Lipstadt reveals that S. Wiesenthal just made up the number .... read about it here ....

http://www.jewishreviewofbooks.com/publications/detail/simon-wiesenthal-and-the-ethics-of-history
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So why wasn't it David Irving or his little band of fools that did it. Why did it have to be a Jewish historian specialising in the Holocaust?
 
Saggy said:
The numbers killed are not exaggerated, they are pure fantasy. The Jews gassed at Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, Muthausen, all now admitted by all to be pure fantasy. And the 5,000,000 non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? Pure fantasy, D. Lipstadt reveals that S. Wiesenthal just made up the number .... read about it here ....

http://www.jewishreviewofbooks.com/publications/detail/simon-wiesenthal-and-the-ethics-of-history
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So Lipstadt talks of Wiesel and Wiesenthal the two most lauded Jewish men associated with the Holocaust. Both recognized as pathological liars....
 
Clayton Moore said:
Both recognized as pathological liars....
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Speaking of which, are you ever going to get around to telling us how you calculated your "far less than 500,000" number and what sources you used?

Or have you been too busy formatting Krege's raw data for the web -- there's no need, we have our own (actually qualified) expert for the analysis, and he doesn't need any special format...
.
 
Clayton Moore said:
So Lipstadt talks of Wiesel and Wiesenthal the two most lauded Jewish men associated with the Holocaust. Both recognized as pathological liars....
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Only Hitler apologists recognize them as that.

Sooner or later, I find, most Hitler apologists get around to saying that the conditions in the camps were really rather pleasant with the swimming pools and recreational facilities and all of that happy horse manure.

You're still going to have to come up with some really good evidence to support the crap that that rotting tub of lard Fetzer claims. So far, all I have seen is arguments from incredulity that parallel those that twoofers offer up for CD at the WTC.
 
Nick Terry said:
....

Our knowledge of the Peloponnesian War is almost entirely derived from a single source, Thucydides. Archaeology cannot corroborate most of the events described in his account, and there are really few other written sources to do the same thing. There is unsurprisingly a great amount of disagreement over whether one can rely on Thucydides. But few would handwave away the entire account and dismiss the Peloponnesian War as a figment of his imagination. It does, after all, help us explain the rise of Athens in ancient Greece, which left other evidence and thus 'fits' with our expectations. We also have Herodotus writing in the period immediately beforehand. But we don't have a comparable account to Thucydides written by a Spartan.

....
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Thucydides and Xenophon actually help us explain the decline and eventual destruction of Athens as well as the subsequent rise of Thebes and Macedon. Athens had already transformed itself from a city-state at the head of a mutual defence league into a seat of empire before the Peloponnesian War began and, indeed, that was one of the reasons that conflict ensued.

We can also rely upon the aphorisms contained in Aristophanes' plays and archeological reference points including the Pnyx and others.

Even without contemporary accounts or imagining that all documentation on the Holocaust were destroyed, there would be ample evidence that it occurred to historians sifting through the rubble many generations from now. Holocaust deniers are just wasting their time.
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p335_Nordling.html
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Nordling writes, "It has been a common belief that about 6 million Jews died in these camps..."

But that is not what historians say; historians say only half that number died in the camp system.

Another big problem is that Nordling relies heavily on Sanning, and Sanning says five million Jews "emigrated" in the first two years after the war began. Where to? And where from?
 
Wroclaw said:
I'll give you fifty bucks if you can produce a single history book that reports gas chambers having been used at Belsen or Buchenwald.
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This is why we have google, so ... we have on no less authority than Barack Obama himself ...

"Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful."

Or the trusted news organization AP ... this is from 2007, btw, ...


Associated Press

Dr. Fritz Klein (center), who selected prisoners to be sent to the gas chamber at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in Germany, was forced to move bodies to a mass grave after the camp was liberated by the British in April 1945. Sixty thousand prisoners were found in the camp. Klein was later tried and hanged.

So, the hoax lies, still current, are that there were gas chambers at Buchenwald and Belsen.

The beauty of the holohoax is that it is absurd on its face, and any lie at all can be told in the mass media, without fear of contradiction, even today.
 
Wroclaw said:
Nordling writes, "It has been a common belief that about 6 million Jews died in these camps..."

But that is not what historians say; historians say only half that number died in the camp system.

Another big problem is that Nordling relies heavily on Sanning, and Sanning says five million Jews "emigrated" in the first two years after the war began. Where to? And where from?
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Not to mention that both them completely ignore those sent to the camps but never registered, along with many of the camps -- you know, the teeny tiny ones such as Bełżec, Chełmno, Dachau, Jasenovac, Sachsenhausen, Sobibor, Treblinka and Warsaw (just to choose the ones whose toll was in six figures).

Don't you think it's odd that CM claims to have mostly read books by real historians, and yet every single 'source' zie has offered has been a denier. One would think that CM might not have been entirely truthful about zir reading given this dearth of mainstream citations...

Oh, and CM? I missed the part where you explained why you haven't been able to produce Krege's raw data. Believe me, we're all waiting (but none of his is holding their breath).
.
 
Saggy said:
This is why we have google, so ... we have on no less authority than Barack Obama himself ...

"Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful."

Or the trusted news organization AP ... this is from 2007, btw, ...


Associated Press

Dr. Fritz Klein (center), who selected prisoners to be sent to the gas chamber at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in Germany, was forced to move bodies to a mass grave after the camp was liberated by the British in April 1945. Sixty thousand prisoners were found in the camp. Klein was later tried and hanged.

So, the hoax lies, still current, are that there were gas chambers at Buchenwald and Belsen.

The beauty of the holohoax is that it is absurd on its face, and any lie at all can be told in the mass media, without fear of contradiction, even today.
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He's talking about real historians and history books, not the "media" and public perception.
 
twinstead said:
He's talking about real historians and history books, not the "media" and public perception.
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I doubt that any real historian has ever believed the gas chamber idiocy. The reality of the camps has been suppressed for 60 years, but real historians like Germar Rudolf and Gurgen Graf are finally publishing history, instead of the lies that have dominated the academia, the media, and public perception.
 
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