Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[tsig]

the German people clearly supported and sympathized with the Nazi party and wanted victory for Germany.. nothing scandalous in that statement.

its seems that the soldiers of Nazi Germany that died during WW2 are now viewed as victims of manipulative and oppressive leaders rather than being considered self conscious individuals that died defending ideals they believed in.

What does this have to do with holocaust denial?

 

[LemmyCaution]

As a general statement I think all soldiers that died in combat should be respected and honored regardless of which side they where fighting for. The British during the US Revolution, The Confederates during the US Civil War, or The Viet Cong in Vietnam.

And it is important to be honest about what happens in wars, and I have to disagree that all soldiers should be respected and honored regardless . . . It was important to expose and criticize, while understanding, the American officers and soldiers who participated in atrocities in Vietnam, for example. Just as it is important to be honest and not blindly respectful about the commission of Nazi atrocities and war crimes. By saying this, I am not buying into your mistaken notion that all soldiers in the Wehrmacht were Nazis--they weren't--nor am I saying that all were guilty of war crimes or atrocities. These are not simple matters, involving, like Abu Ghraib, chains of command, individual volition, milieu and context, social pressure, and cultural and ideological divisions. Still, playing the blind monkey in the face of what wars result in and the reality of war crimes (American, Nazi, Soviet . . . ) is a poor substitute for thought and comprehension.

 

[LemmyCaution]

i think that by 1939.. the "approval ratings"/ support was higher than 60%

And by 1939, please tell us, how the opposition to the Nazis participated in public discourse, political discussion and advocacy, and the government . . . their newspapers . . . their candidates and political strategies . . . their appearances on radio . . . their public debates with Nazi leaders . . . etc. . . . their times in camps and how that helped them bring alternative perspectives to people . . . a brief description of political discourse in the Third Reich explaining the range of viewpoints publicly available to the voters and how this affected opinion and behavior . . . and also please explain how elections worked by the mid thirties . . . editorial pages . . . etc.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Yeah, it's called "sovereignty." Countries can decide who they want to allow in.

More like hiding from the truth with conniving lies.


http://windowintopalestine.blogspot.com/2009/06/1919-shameless-6-millions-jewish.html




http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html...ONSTRUCTING_SIX_MILLION_HOLO-MYTHS%5B1%5D.pdf



1919, the crucifixion of (6 million) Jews Must Stop!

by Former Governor of NY State

 

[Tolls]

The miracle that was the German economy through that era is a paper tiger. Before Hitler went after the Jews or even the communists he flogged the trade unions out of exisitence.

When the autobahns were constructed nearly a 1000 construction and transport businesses went bankrupt. The Nazis told them after the fact what the pay rate would be for their work. If the companies refused to continue, the government would simply confiscate their trucks and equipment. Virtually none of the manual labour got paid - they got 'told' they were donating their efforts to the glory of Germany

But dvictr would have us believe that almost every German was happy with the situation...

 

[Clayton Moore]

I suggest you read even a popular history of the Third Reich. You seem to have no grasp on the history of the period whatsoever.



Who's trying to scrub away their history? Every German I know is fully cognizant of what his/her country did. I have friends whose grandparents were members of the Nazi party. I don't see the big deal, frankly. They know what happened was wrong and they say so, when it happens to come up. Am I supposed to expect of them that they hang on a perpetual cross for what happened seventy years ago?

By the way, I'm Jewish.

Then you understand how important it is to keep the Holocaust myth in everyone's face.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What does this have to do with holocaust denial?

It has to do with the Holocaust mythters insisting that German Soldiers were mindless zombies capable of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men. And the methodical ritual slaughter of many millions more of non Jewish children and women, and men.

 

[LemmyCaution]

It has to do with the Holocaust mythters insisting that German Soldiers were mindless zombies capable of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men. And the methodical ritual slaughter of many millions more of non Jewish children and women, and men.

Citations for portrayals of Germans as mindless zombies, not counting popular movies of the 1950s?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Citations for portrayals of Germans as mindless zombies, not counting popular movies of the 1950s?

It has to do with the Holocaust mythters insisting that German Soldiers were mindless zombies capable of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men. And the methodical ritual slaughter of many millions more of non Jewish children and women, and men.

Could anyone capable/guilty of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men, soldier or not, not be a mindless Zombie?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Could anyone capable/guilty of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men, soldier or not, not be a mindless Zombie?

Yes. I take it that the study of genocides is not your strong suit. Please, provide the citations and hold your ignorant suppositions for later.

 

[Wroclaw]

Then you understand how important it is to keep the Holocaust myth in everyone's face.

Wow, what a dickish thing to say.

 

[TSR]

1919, the crucifixion of (6 million) Jews Must Stop!

by Former Governor of NY State

.
No, 6.8 -- deniers always discount the children to which this op-ed referred. You've stated in other threads that it's all about the kids -- or is that just a dodge here or there to try to disguise your real agenda?

Tell us, CM: what just happened to be the Jewish population in Eastern Europe at the time this was written? Are you trying to claim that the famine to which the article refers did *not* occur?
.

 

[MG1962]

It has to do with the Holocaust mythters insisting that German Soldiers were mindless zombies capable of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men. And the methodical ritual slaughter of many millions more of non Jewish children and women, and men.

It amazes me the amount of vitriol you throw out in challenging the holocaust, when you clearly have no real idea who did the killings, how their orders were framed, or how the process was organised.

 

[TSR]

It has to do with the Holocaust mythters insisting that German Soldiers were mindless zombies capable of performing and ignoring the methodical ritual slaughter of millions of Jewish children and women, and men.

.
Three small problems out many here, CM: it was not the Army that perpetrated the Holocaust, but the SS.

Learn the difference.

Find me any real historian who claims these people were "mindless".

Ditto any claim other than by a denier that any sort of ritual was involved.
.

And the methodical ritual slaughter of many millions more of non Jewish children and women, and men.

.
Do detail this "ritual" for us.

And hat happened to Guta and Abus Strawczynski? It is, after all, all about the kids, right?
.

 

[MG1962]

But dvictr would have us believe that almost every German was happy with the situation...

I agree with you - As I grew up I wondered how the German people first could support such leadership, then I wondered how they tollerated such leadership. Do enough reading you discover how they were blindsided, you realize just how little support Hitler really had, and what tactics the Nazis used to maintain control.

I equally find it interesting that by learning about the era and the consequences of WW2 and the Holocaust I should by default have undying hate for all things German...forever.

 

[Wroclaw]

I agree with you - As I grew up I wondered how the German people first could support such leadership, then I wondered how they tollerated such leadership. Do enough reading you discover how they were blindsided, you realize just how little support Hitler really had, and what tactics the Nazis used to maintain control.

When I teach about this period, invariably I have to address the issue of how these things happened — not just the Holocaust, mind you. And invariably I use the analogy of the frog in water that slowly comes to a boil or I talk about "how slowly the noose tightened around their necks."

It's very easy to be incredulous that the German people could have gone down the road they did, but only with the benefit of hindsight that the world has had since the war.

Does believing this make me naïve? Maybe. Does it make me idealistic? Perhaps. Do I like to pose rhetorical questions and then answer them? I do.

 

[twinstead]

Wow, what a dickish thing to say.

It's what people who can't argue facts do. Clayton is famous for it.

 

[Pacal]

Clayton says:

And the methodical ritual slaughter of many millions more of non Jewish children and women, and men.

Wow! Just Wow!! In this day and age someone is bringing up the myth of ritual murder. The fact that over the centuries not even ONE case ritual murder was even remotely shown to be plausible doesn't seem to prevent the continual rebirth of this hoary lie.

The Romans accused Christians of breeding and sacrificing babies and of murdering non Christians for their blood. So-called witches were supposed to murder non-witches and bred babies for sacrifice and eating. The Cathars were supposed to have also indulged and I could go on and on. And of course recently we had the great Satanic Conspiracy scare comp[lete with babies bred for sacrifice.

Of course we have had many, many centuries of the accusation that Jews killed by crucifiction Christian, men, women and esspecially children and drained them of their blood to eat as mixed in bread. This lie of course led to massacres and other horrors. That the Hebrew Bible specifically forbids the eating of blood is of course forgotten. (Kosher meat anyone) Clayton resurectes this evil lie and then proceeds to fantasize about millions of victims.

THanks for showing what a inveterate anti-semite you are. JHoweverClayton old boy this accusation is so OLD! Try something new.

 

[LemmyCaution]

.
Three small problems out many here, CM: it was not the Army that perpetrated the Holocaust, but the SS.

This assertion may make us feel better, but it is not entirely true. Bartov, Heer, and others have detailed, for example, the participation of the Wehrmacht in the war crimes including genocide. Others, like Browning and Westermann, have done the same, to take another example, for the police battalions. The genocide was not carried out by the SS alone.

This myth, which is being peddled here, of soldierly virtues that unite enemies and elevate everyone involved to some heroic status fed for years into the myth of the unsullied, upright Wehrmacht. It is a crap story that has been taken apart by careful historical research by scholars cited above and others.

 

[LemmyCaution]

When I teach about this period, invariably I have to address the issue of how these things happened — not just the Holocaust, mind you. And invariably I use the analogy of the frog in water that slowly comes to a boil or I talk about "how slowly the noose tightened around their necks."

It's very easy to be incredulous that the German people could have gone down the road they did, but only with the benefit of hindsight that the world has had since the war.

Does believing this make me naïve? Maybe. Does it make me idealistic? Perhaps. Do I like to pose rhetorical questions and then answer them? I do.

dvictr and Clayton Moore should wrestle a bit not only with your boiling frog, but with some of the variety of responses of Germans in the pressure cooker. Here are some observations of members of the 304th Orpo Battalion assigned to gate-guard duty at Warsaw ghettos, made by a contemporary:

There were different kinds of gendarmes. They were from different places. If you had a gendarme from Austria, he'd offer on his own to help with the smuggling. The worst were the gendarmes from Germany.

We often talked politics with the gendarmes. Sometimes a gendarme would express a sort of sympathy. . . . If you asked him, "Where are your seven million German Communists?" a gendarme like that might say, "You don't know what's going on underneath my uniform." That kind of gendarme wouldn't take any money for helping with smuggling. . . .

Most gendarmes broke down and made friend with Jewish policemen during conversations about family. If you got them onto the subject of their families, you could easily lead them. Some of them would tell you about letters they'd got from their families, where they'd been told about the deaths of the dearest ones. At a moment like that a gendarme would lose interest in everything and say, "Everything is **** already, do what you want." . . . Quite a few gendarmes said that the battle with the Jews is only politics, but they hate the Poles from the heart.

dvictr might then want to explain someone like Erich Horst, who, according to a document in a Jewish archive in Warsaw,

hated Hitler and did whatever he could and however he could , always with dedication, to save victims of persecution, Poles and Jews alike.

Oh, Horst was a Nazi Party member doing duty in Warsaw who collaborated with victims of the Nazis.

And the first quoted bit, on different sorts of gendarmes from the Reich assigned to Warsaw duty, was written by Szapse Rotholc, a member of the Warsaw ghetto's Ordnungsdienst, who did guard duty at ghetto wall gates along with members of the 304th Orpo and Polish blue police.

Whilst the cauldron boiled, some people were left some scope for choices, and though most citizens of the Reich--out of patriotism, on account of the desire to belong, from wanting to share in the achievements and spoils of the Reich's successes, for fear of enemies and supposed threats, for reasons of individual psychology, from lack of meaningful options, etc.--went along, and many of these enthusiastically, not all did and not all who did approved wholeheartedly.