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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Yet the incident he refers to above is supposed to have been in Dvinsk, Latavia - where he had no command responsibilities

Please tell us all General Kittel's assignment from Aug. 26, 1941, to May 15, 1942. You read his war record, you tell us, so you know the answer. If you do not answer, then everyone here will know you've been lying. Again.
 
Please tell us all General Kittel's assignment from Aug. 26, 1941, to May 15, 1942. You read his war record, you tell us, so you know the answer. If you do not answer, then everyone here will know you've been lying. Again.

It is not General Kittel, its Heinrich Kittel who tells the story of corpse water. As far as I am aware he never reached the level of commander till late 44 and that was for a week before he was captured by the Americans.

Which was why I asked Rabbit for a link to the military career of this man. Accurate OOBs of German forces on the Eastern Front are notoriously hard to get on the net, and I am always interested in accurate unit formation details when I can get it.
 
It is not General Kittel, its Heinrich Kittel who tells the story of corpse water. As far as I am aware he never reached the level of commander till late 44 and that was for a week before he was captured by the Americans.

This is the man, yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Kittel

He's the guy in the Wehrmacht television program talking about corpse water, as well as talking about the extermination of Jews in Latvia.

See:

http://www.seligman.org.il/kraslava_holocaust.html

Which was why I asked Rabbit for a link to the military career of this man. Accurate OOBs of German forces on the Eastern Front are notoriously hard to get on the net, and I am always interested in accurate unit formation details when I can get it.

While I'd like the Bunny to answer the question, there is, in fact, every indication that he was deployed to Army Group North in the summer of 1941. He was commissioned as a commandant the following year at Stalino. The French version of Wikipedia contains this information, as do a few other Web pages.
 
While I'd like the Bunny to answer the question, there is, in fact, every indication that he was deployed to Army Group North in the summer of 1941. He was commissioned as a commandant the following year at Stalino. The French version of Wikipedia contains this information, as do a few other Web pages.

Do you have anything in English on that? - I would be interested to know the unit he was with
 
Please tell us all General Kittel's assignment from Aug. 26, 1941, to May 15, 1942. You read his war record, you tell us, so you know the answer. If you do not answer, then everyone here will know you've been lying. Again.

What lie? I didn't say he wasn't in army Group North, I just said he didn't have command responsibility there.

Where he did have command responsibility - like in Cracow - he thought the treatment of Jews was fine. Considering all his postings don't you find the fact that he only sees an atrocity against Jews where it can't be sheeted to him suspicious?

What do you make about his belief that almost 90% of Jews are still alive?
 
Kittel had already been pegged as a war criminal by the Russians - which made him very susceptible to the Psychological Warfare units of the Allies, who could make the very plausible threat to hand him over to the Russians for war crimes (fortunately he died in West Germany in 1969 without spending any time in prison - apart from as a POW repatriated in 1947)

This is him on Rostov

After the fall of ROSTOV the Russians accused me, in a great official solemn declaration on the radio, of having poisoned 18,000 Russians. As regards that I can only say until then I knew nothing whatsoever about the whole affair in which so many people were killed, and was actually not under the impression either that so many people had been removed from there. They were probably carried off. I don't know. Anyhow I'm certainly one of the best nominees for a war criminal - although there are quite a number of them - WILDERMUTH (PW) also told me in the strictest secrecy that he has signed about 40 sentences of death in his official capacity as Feldkommandant

Wildermuth was also very loud in talking about mass killings - and killings on a much greater scale than his 40 death sentences.
 
Where he did have command responsibility - like in Cracow - he thought the treatment of Jews was fine. Considering all his postings don't you find the fact that he only sees an atrocity against Jews where it can't be sheeted to him suspicious

Why?
 
And if there is no obvious entry for gold teeth, would that not provide powerful evidence against mass homicide in AR?
No, it would not. You apparently opted to misunderstand the point of my post. Here are some more reasons why the lists are not powerful evidence against mass homicide:

Pohl judgment, 3 November 1947, US Military Tribunal Nuremberg:
An order from WVHA dated 8 October 1942, stated specifically that "gold removed from the teeth and supplied in the normal way by the concentration camps" was to be delivered to the Reich Bank. (XXII/62, doc. NO-2305.)

Report of the Independent Commission of Experts, Switzerland and Gold Transactions in the Second World War @ http://www.scribd.com/doc/33099413/Reich-Gold-

The victim gold was shipped to Berlin in the form of jewelry, such as rings or watches, gold coins, and also in the form of dental gold. The civil administration kept accounts with a relevant designation[50] and apparently credited the Reichsbank directly. Jewelry went to the Municipal Pawnshop in Berlin, which either appraised the objects, or if they could not be sold, had them resmelted under the supervision of the Reich Office for Precious Metals. Military offices (field commands) transferred the gold to the Reich Main Accounting Office where the shipments were duly entered into the «Russia Booty Ledger».[51] . . . In the annexed areas, precious metals looted from both Jews and non-Jews were also confiscated by the Main Trusteeship Office East [Haupttreuhandstelle Ost] and the Trusteeship Office for the General Government.[60] These offices reported to the Four-Year Plan Office, namely Hermann Göring. Only in 1944 were they directed to ship the objects they had sequestered to the Reichsbank. The Lodz ghetto was an exception since the local municipal administration was responsible. «Operation Reinhardt» came under the General Government. Here the same types of deportation, killing, and plundering operations took place as had been applied to the occupied areas of the Soviet Union. As a result, conflicts ensued between Reich Leader of the SS and Police Heinrich Himmler, and General Governor Hans Frank, with the latter emerging victorious in autumn 1942.[61]

Up until mid 1942 the SS collected in the territory of the Reich the dental gold from the deceased or murdered concentration camp inmates and shipped it directly to the SS Health Office. There it was used for the dental needs of SS personnel.[62] A modification of this procedure was instigated by an exchange of letters between Dr. Ernst Robert Grawitz, Reich Physician of the SS, and Police, and the SS detachments in the General Government. At the end of April 1942, SS Major General [SS-Gruppenführer] Grawitz addressed the Warsaw Leader of the SS and Police requesting that «old gold of Jewish origin» confiscated in Warsaw be made available for dental purposes.63 From Warsaw, SS Senior Colonel [SS-Oberführer] Wigand replied that he was unable to decide about the use of «old gold of Jewish origin» which had come into his possession, and that Grawitz should obtain instructions from Himmler. After Grawitz had contacted the personal headquarters of the Reichsführer SS, Himmler sent out a directive in August 1942 to the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the «Eastern Territories» to the effect that «all quantities of gold, old gold, silver, various precious metals, and other valuables without exception be shipped to SS Lieutenant General [SS- Obergruppenführer] Pohl», head of the SS Central Office for Economy and Administration [SS-WVHA].[64] Thereafter it would be up to the WVHA to decide how the booty would be distributed. At about the same time, negotiations took place between the WVHA, representatives of the Reich Ministry of Finance, as well as the Reich Minister of Economy and Reichsbank President Walther Funk concerning the disposal of the looted assets gathered by the SS.[65] The result of these negotiations was that the booty was to be taken from the WVHA to the Reichsbank. Beginning in August 1942, SS Captain Bruno Melmer [SS- Hauptsturmführer][66] shipped sealed containers to the Reichsbank where the foreign currencies, precious metals, coins, and pieces of jewelry were sorted.

The Reichsbank Office for Precious Metals, headed by Albert Thoms,[67] accepted these shipments and distributed them along the various channels such as the Municipal Pawnshop, refining centers, etc. Once the SS dentists had covered their «requirement»,[68 – footnote reads: It was not until November 1942 that dental gold looted from victims began arriving at the Reichsbank due to the fact that until that time it had been being used for the dental treatment of members of the SS as per request of SS Reich Physician Dr. Ernst Robert Grawitz (see Jüdisches Historisches Institut Warschau 1961, p. 404). In October, the Head of Office A of the WVHA informed Himmler that the Health Office had already received 50 kg of dental gold, sufficient for the next five years. For this reason, he wanted to ship this gold to the Reichsbank in the future in return for acknowledgment from the latter. Frank to Himmler, 8 October 1942, BAB NS 19/3929. ] Himmler’s subordinates also began, in November 1942, to deliver dental gold extracted from those who had been murdered. This gold was for the most part smelted down and processed into bars of a type designated «various». In this connection, it should moreover be noted that within the deployment area of «Operation Reinhardt» in the General Government, the process of melting down was carried out prior to dispatch to Berlin, whereas for Auschwitz-Birkenau, such a procedure is not known to have taken place.[69 – footnote reads: That the practice of melting down was carried out in Poland is confirmed by the comparison of two documents, i.e., by the concluding report of the Lublin SS and Police Leader Odilo Globocnik on the economic aspect of «Operation Reinhardt» dated 5 January 1944, as well as the concluding report of the Galicia District SS and Police Leader Friedrich Katzmann on the local «solution to the Jewish question» dated 30 June 1943. According to these documents, Katzmann shipped scrap gold, earrings, dental gold etc. to Globocnik’s «Special Headquarters», while the latter’s statement of accounts showed only gold and silver bars. See Jüdisches Historisches Institut Warschau 1961, pp. 421 f. (Globocnik); Trials of Major War Criminals, vol. 37, pp. 402 f. (Nuremberg Document Nr. L-105) (Katzmann).]
The precious metals carrying the designation of «Melmer» in the records of the Reichsbank, did not, however, originate solely in «Operation Reinhardt». Considerable amounts of gold came from the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp. These shipments were after all so voluminous that Auschwitz was exempted from a new regulation on the disposal of victim gold that, according to a declaration made by the head of Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA, Willi Burger, was introduced around the end of 1943. According to this new regulation, the WVHA ordered that in the future, valuables and dental gold were no longer to be shipped directly to the Office A-II headed by SS Captain [SS-Hauptsturmführer] Melmer, but rather to the Concentration Camp Administration [Office D], which would deliver them to Melmer. Auschwitz, on the other hand, continued making its shipments directly to Melmer.

To summarize, the disposal of looted gold had several routes: from theT4 killing centers to Degussa; from the Soviet Union direct to the Reichsbank and to the Pawn Shop; from military authorities in all the areas occupied by Germany, as booty, via the Reich Main Accounting Office to the Reichsbank; as refined precious metal from Lublin to the WVHA and on to the Reichsbank; as unrefined precious metal from Auschwitz-Birkenau to the WVHA. It must be noted that we know very little about the security police. In addition, the above-mentioned September 1942 order issued by the Ministry for the Eastern Territories is a strong indication that looted gold could also bypass the Reichsbank. For a long time, the paths taken by victim gold, as well as the manner in which it was disposed, have only been very partially researched. Due to the absence of sources, the elucidation of these points is to a certain extent doomed to failure.

Seen as a function of the quantity and of the value it represents, the gold which was looted from victims is but a fraction of the proven gold reserves handled by the Reichsbank.[70] . . .

Now, perhaps LGR will share his thoughts on the implications of the last paragraph of August Frank’s memorandum in NO-724.
 
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What lie? I didn't say he wasn't in army Group North, I just said he didn't have command responsibility there.

Fine. So you agree that he was with Army Group North. Good.

Where he did have command responsibility - like in Cracow - he thought the treatment of Jews was fine. Considering all his postings don't you find the fact that he only sees an atrocity against Jews where it can't be sheeted to him suspicious?

Not really, when one considers that there wasn't mass murder of Jews going on in Cracow when he was there.

What do you make about his belief that almost 90% of Jews are still alive?

I'd first have to see it quoted in a source other than you.
 
Kittel had already been pegged as a war criminal by the Russians - which made him very susceptible to the Psychological Warfare units of the Allies, who could make the very plausible threat to hand him over to the Russians for war crimes (fortunately he died in West Germany in 1969 without spending any time in prison - apart from as a POW repatriated in 1947)

This is him on Rostov

After the fall of ROSTOV the Russians accused me, in a great official solemn declaration on the radio, of having poisoned 18,000 Russians. As regards that I can only say until then I knew nothing whatsoever about the whole affair in which so many people were killed, and was actually not under the impression either that so many people had been removed from there. They were probably carried off. I don't know. Anyhow I'm certainly one of the best nominees for a war criminal - although there are quite a number of them - WILDERMUTH (PW) also told me in the strictest secrecy that he has signed about 40 sentences of death in his official capacity as Feldkommandant

Wildermuth was also very loud in talking about mass killings - and killings on a much greater scale than his 40 death sentences.

The point being what?

But more importantly: One paragraph above the one you cite, Kittel says this: "18,000 Jews were killed at Rostov. Of course I had nothing to do with the whole affair! But it is down on my account because I was the only known General there."

So I hope you're not claiming that he's denying that Jews were murdered at Rostov because he clearly is not. He's merely saying it was done before he got there, which might very well be true. I don't know because I haven't checked the dates there.
 
No, it would not. You apparently opted to misunderstand the point of my post. Here are some more reasons why the lists are not powerful evidence against mass homicide:

I would never say they were powerful evidence against mass homicide, I am just saying they are weak evidence for mass homicide. They would certainly be consistent with mass homicide.

Mr Caution, can you clarify your position on the dental gold and the AR final statement.

Are you saying dental gold is on the final statement, if so what entry or included under what camoflague entry?

Or are you saying dental gold was deliberately excluded from the final profit statements. If so, why?

Now, perhaps LGR will share his thoughts on the implications of the last paragraph of August Frank’s memorandum in NO-724.

2. Alle Preise setzt das SS-W-V-Hauptamt fest, unter Beachtung gesetzlicher Richtpreise. Diese Festsetzung kann auch nachtraeglich stattfinden. Zeit- und personalraubende, kleinliche Wertfeststellungen koennen hierbei underbleiben.

Im allgemeinen sind Durchschnittsstueckpreise festzusetzen, z.B. fuer eine gebrauchte Maennerhose 3, - Mark, fuer eine Wolldecke 6- Mark usw.

Fuer die Ablieferung der unbrauchbaren Gegenstaende an das Reichswirtschaftsministerium sind im allegemeinen Kiloprise zugrundezulegen [?]

Es ist streng darauf zu achten, dass bei allen zur Abgabe kommenden Kleidern und Ueberkleidern der Judenstern entfernt wird.

Es sind ferner mit groessmoglichster Sorgfalt alle zur Abgabe kommenden Gegenstaende auf versteckte und eingenaehte Werte zu untersuchen


What am I supposed to make of it?

What do you make of the subject line?
"Betr.: Verwertung des Besitzes anlaesslich der An- und Aussiedlung der Juden"

"An" prefix has the strong conotation of a settlement into a defined locality, I think.
 
The point being what?

But more importantly: One paragraph above the one you cite, Kittel says this: "18,000 Jews were killed at Rostov. Of course I had nothing to do with the whole affair! But it is down on my account because I was the only known General there."

So I hope you're not claiming that he's denying that Jews were murdered at Rostov because he clearly is not. He's merely saying it was done before he got there, which might very well be true. I don't know because I haven't checked the dates there.

Well he certainly doesn't seem to have any definite information on it, he thinks the number is a gross exaggeration and he appears to believe that rather than being killed they were "carried off".

My point is, General Kittel had every reason to be very cooperative with the Psychological Warfare Executive. And with good results for him personally, because despite being named by the Russians as a major war criminal he was allowed to die peacefully in his own home after an uneventful retirement.
 
Well he certainly doesn't seem to have any definite information on it, he thinks the number is a gross exaggeration and he appears to believe that rather than being killed they were "carried off".

Really? Then why did he use the term beseitigt?

Do me a favor: Don't deal with me like I'm some kind of freaking amateur. It's insulting.

My point is, General Kittel had every reason to be very cooperative with the Psychological Warfare Executive. And with good results for him personally, because despite being named by the Russians as a major war criminal he was allowed to die peacefully in his own home after an uneventful retirement.

But none of that means he didn't see Jews being murdered in Latvia. Does it, now?

Here's the bottom line, Bunny: Kittel and Eberbach are having a discussion about war crimes they've witnessed. Kittel says this:

I forbade that at Dünaburg and the immediate result was that it stopped at once. I didn’t have any say in the matter at Stalino, that’s to say the tragedy had already taken place, and it had also already taken place at Rostov: the people had already been killed there, but it was put down to my account. I shall certainly be named as a war criminal. 18,000 Jews were killed at Rostov. Of course I had nothing to do with the whole affair! But it is down on my account because I was the only known General there.

Eberbach tries to play it off that Hitler's really the one to blame for the Jews being killed,* and Kittel comes back with the notion that the Jews were pests and something had to be done with them. Then Kittel says this:

After the fall of Rostov the Russians accused me, in a great official solemn declaration on the radio, of having poisoned 18,000 Russians.

Here's the point you glossed over, Bunny: Now, Kittel is talking about 18,000 Russians — not Jews, but Russians. Why? Because the Soviets had trumped up the charge against Kittel of killing Russians and not Jews.

So if he thinks it's an exaggeration (which he doesn't say about the 18,000 dead Jews), then perhaps he thinks it's an exaggeration of the number of Russians killed. After all, they did shoot Russians also. N'est-ce pas?







*Since the recording is from February '45, Hitler is still alive, so perhaps Eberbach is hoping ultimately Hitler will be held responsible for the murder of the Jews.
 
Really? Then why did he use the term beseitigt?

Where does he use the the term beseitigt

Do me a favor: Don't deal with me like I'm some kind of freaking amateur. It's insulting.

You are an amateur. Your training is in Enlish literature

But none of that means he didn't see Jews being murdered in Latvia. Does it, now?

I dare say there were Jews murdered in Latvia. I am suspicious about 3 year old infants - but its not something I have firm views of one way or the other.

I do know that Kittel thought 8 out of 9 Jews were still alive.

Here's the point you glossed over, Bunny: Now, Kittel is talking about 18,000 Russians — not Jews, but Russians. Why? Because the Soviets had trumped up the charge against Kittel of killing Russians and not Jews.

This is why I treat you as an amateur. Anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge knows that the Soviets did not distinguish between Jews and non-Jews when describing atrocities.

There are a number of reasons why SS Generals may have given false testimony in custody. The most likely one is that they had been recruited by Pyschological Warfare to engage in propaganda on their own side. This is also why so much resources were put into snooping on them - to monitor reactions.

It is noteworthy that many of those who were described as ideologically SS resolutely refused to believe the stories. And those who do seem to be confessing seem to be unaware of the mass killings under their own jurisdiction.
 
Where does he use the the term beseitigt

Tell you what: You start answering my questions, and I'll answer that one above.

I do know that Kittel thought 8 out of 9 Jews were still alive.

Start with that one.

This is why I treat you as an amateur. Anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge knows that the Soviets did not distinguish between Jews and non-Jews when describing atrocities.

Which is precisely my point.

There are a number of reasons why SS Generals may have given false testimony in custody. The most likely one is that they had been recruited by Pyschological Warfare to engage in propaganda on their own side. This is also why so much resources were put into snooping on them - to monitor reactions.

Wow. Really?

It is noteworthy that many of those who were described as ideologically SS resolutely refused to believe the stories. And those who do seem to be confessing seem to be unaware of the mass killings under their own jurisdiction.

Well, why not start with the quote above about eight out of nine Jews surviving, and we can take it from there.

Or will you run away with your tail tucked between your legs again?
 
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