Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[kageki]

The manure being spread by Dogzilla shouldn't distract kageki from the questions how he knows about the open air shootings, why he finds them to make sense, and what was their scope and purpose.

So you are in denial as well.

Well ok you were convincing. Open air shootings don't make sense. Are you denying the shootings?

 

[LemmyCaution]

So you are in denial as well.

Well ok you were convincing. Open air shootings don't make sense. Are you denying the shootings?

No, in part because my measure of what can happen is not the limit of my own experience. But more important are these questions:

- Why are you repeating yourself? (You asked forms of this question about open air shootings in your posts 2468 & 2471, and I replied in my posts 2469 & 2474. I see no reason to reply again but rather to refer you to DSM-IV-TR Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00.)

- Why do you fail, on the other hand, even as you repeat yourself, to answer the questions asked of you about the open air shootings? (There is no need to repeat them, as I assume at this point you know them, have evaded them on purpose, and will not answer them. There is a long and proud history of Denial behind you on this stance.)

 

[Wroclaw]

You have to be in denial not to see a relevant comparison between the gas chamber executions. The problems would only be compounded if there are more victims.

Look, you have the testimony regarding how gassings were done. And you have among other studies, Richard Green's export report on how these things were possible given the physical chemistry.

But I want you to engage in a thought exercise, please.

Here's what a prison gas chamber looks like:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/04/69/86/have-a-seat-in-the-gas.jpg

Presumably, you know what the Birkenau gas chambers looked like.

Green's report is here:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/rudolf/affweb.pdf

Begin reading on page 25.

I will presume, however, that you don't have the attention span, so:

In a prison gas chamber, the cyanide level reaches 7,500 ppm. That is about 75 times a lethal dose required. In the Auschwitz gas chambers, it is likely (though not certain) the level never reached that high. Instead, efficacy of killing was achieved, in part, by the fact that the chambers were so crowded.

To wit: I believe you are Japanese. Ever been to Tokyo? If so, ever ridden the subway there? During rush hour? Now image a room twice as crowded, and you get some idea of what the gas chambers would have been like. Now drop cyanide pellets on the floor and have people start panicking.

Getting the picture yet?

 

[Wroclaw]

I see no reason to reply again but rather to refer you to DSM-IV-TR Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00.)

My vote is for 318.2.

Just sayin'.

 

[LemmyCaution]

My vote is for 318.2.

Just sayin'.

Whichever, or even both, painful to observe.

 

[kageki]

Look, you have the testimony regarding how gassings were done. And you have among other studies, Richard Green's export report on how these things were possible given the physical chemistry.

But I want you to engage in a thought exercise, please.

Here's what a prison gas chamber looks like:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/04/69/86/have-a-seat-in-the-gas.jpg

Presumably, you know what the Birkenau gas chambers looked like.

Green's report is here:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/rudolf/affweb.pdf

Begin reading on page 25.

I will presume, however, that you don't have the attention span, so:

In a prison gas chamber, the cyanide level reaches 7,500 ppm. That is about 75 times a lethal dose required. In the Auschwitz gas chambers, it is likely (though not certain) the level never reached that high. Instead, efficacy of killing was achieved, in part, by the fact that the chambers were so crowded.

To wit: I believe you are Japanese. Ever been to Tokyo? If so, ever ridden the subway there? During rush hour? Now image a room twice as crowded, and you get some idea of what the gas chambers would have been like. Now drop cyanide pellets on the floor and have people start panicking.

Getting the picture yet?

Actually it's hard to imagine twice as crowded because you literally get lifted off your feet at times. Besides the miracle of packing more people in, are you saying people died really as a result of suffocation rather then cyanide poisoning? Revisionists have argued that suffocation alone would have been sufficient. I would still think the gas would pose some issues.

 

[Wroclaw]

Actually it's hard to imagine twice as crowded because you literally get lifted off your feet at times. Besides the miracle of packing more people in, are you saying people died really as a result of suffocation rather then cyanide poisoning? Revisionists have argued that suffocation alone would have been sufficient. I would still think the gas would pose some issues.

Not instead. As well. Plus trampling when people started to realize they were being gassed and people rushed for the doors.

 

[kageki]

Not instead. As well. Plus trampling when people started to realize they were being gassed and people rushed for the doors.

So exactly how packed were these things? Have you actually been on the train during rush hour in Tokyo? You literally can't move and they have people that push and pack people into the train. There is no rushing or trampling in those conditions. So how can the gas chambers be even more crowded then Tokyo during rush hour?

 

[Wroclaw]

I've been on New York's subways during rush hours, and they used to (but no longer) have pushers as well.

How can it be more crowded? Let's just say the Nazis were not concerned with the welfare of the "passengers."

 

[Clayton Moore]

Actually it's hard to imagine twice as crowded because you literally get lifted off your feet at times. Besides the miracle of packing more people in, are you saying people died really as a result of suffocation rather then cyanide poisoning? Revisionists have argued that suffocation alone would have been sufficient. I would still think the gas would pose some issues.

The "gas chambers" were just theater to get attention during the war. After the failure in WWI to get the 6 million number into the history books the victims needed a hook. What could be more demonic than bringing Jewish women and children from all corners of Europe and subject them to ritual murder in the most horrible form possible?

Of course they were making it up so the accuracy of how, when, and where was not necessary. The falseness of the gas chambers was obvious to all the particulars, including Churchill, de Gaulle, and Eisenhower and ignored in subsequent post trial decisions.

 

[MG1962]

The "gas chambers" were just theater to get attention during the war. After the failure in WWI to get the 6 million number into the history books the victims needed a hook.

Now there is stunning logic - Germany: Oh dear the Jews set us up to fight WW1 for their own evil needs and we fell into their trap. Hey here is an idea, let allow them to trap us again

I have a used tower in Paris going cheap

 

[Clayton Moore]

I've been on New York's subways during rush hours, and they used to (but no longer) have pushers as well.

How can it be more crowded? Let's just say the Nazis were not concerned with the welfare of the "passengers."

Aren't you gonna tell us how the guards threw babies and small children into the chambers atop the people when no one could be squeezed in?

 

[Dogzilla]

To indicate that you can't compare a U.S. penal system execution of a single prisoner in a gas chamber built for one to the Nazi practice of mass gassing using Zyklon-B. No more and no less than that.

OK, so there was no point.

When you are conducted mass killing in one of the world's largest forests, you hardly need to worry about fuel.

Says the man who has never tried to start a fire with freshly cut wood.

Further, as has been demonstrated at Irving v. Lipstadt, the Topf und Söhne ovens required significantly less coke once they were "processing" dozens of bodies than they did if they were started cold. This was a fantastic boner on Irving's part at that trial and one from which all deniers should learn.

But the official story says that even Topf and Sohne magic ovens couldn't keep up with the demand and that burning pits needed to be dug at Auschwtiz. Frozen earth wouldn't have been as much of a problem as the water table at Auschwtiz. At the AR camps, there never were stationary incinerators.

As for digging holes, don't forget that the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union and began mass shootings just as summer had begun — literally within one day. That was not an accident.

It wasn't planned that way. The invasion was scheduled for May but got pushed back, IIRC because Mussolini got in over his head in the Balkans and needed some help. Anyway, I was actually referring to the AR camps where mass graves were dug over the winter of 1942/1943 to store the bodies of hundreds of thousands of murdered Jews until they could be dug up and incinerated after the Spring thaw.

The EG murderers would not have been bothered by frozen Earth because they made the Jews dig their own graves before they shot them. At least that's how it works in the movies.

 

[Dogzilla]

I've been on New York's subways during rush hours, and they used to (but no longer) have pushers as well.

How can it be more crowded? Let's just say the Nazis were not concerned with the welfare of the "passengers."

The amount of space a 'passenger' occupies is more a function of that 'passenger's' mass than how much the Nazi's cared for that 'passenger's' welfare.

 

[Tolls]

So exactly how packed were these things? Have you actually been on the train during rush hour in Tokyo? You literally can't move and they have people that push and pack people into the train. There is no rushing or trampling in those conditions. So how can the gas chambers be even more crowded then Tokyo during rush hour?

Now, throw some poison gas in there and create a panic and see how well ordered it all stays.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The EG murderers would not have been bothered by frozen Earth because they made the Jews dig their own graves before they shot them. At least that's how it works in the movies.

How it worked in reality was that there was a wave of shootings in the east, which escalated to include all segments of the Jewish population, beginning just after the start of Barbarossa, in early summer, and tapering off in late fall 1941, to resume again in spring 1942.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Now, throw some poison gas in there and create a panic and see how well ordered it all stays.

And, finally, claim that the process was so ordered that the victims could strategize and even figure out to hold their breaths longer than humanly possible to survive and you win a Stundie.

The comparison is good but necessarily not complete: recall too that the victims had been rounded up in often violent actions in their hometowns (with fatalities), stuffed into cattle cars without provisions, carted away from their homes in trips lasting a few days on the trains, were exhausted and hungry and confused by the time of their arrival, were forced through a selection process presided over by SS when they reached the camp, and were hurried along to rabbit's bakeries, where they were rushed into the undresssing room and made to disrobe, all these steps occurring in a secure and guarded camp . . . and which elements of the procedure make the experience somewhat different to that of boarding a daily and familiar commuter train.

 

[LemmyCaution]

But the official story says that even Topf and Sohne magic ovens couldn't keep up with the demand and that burning pits needed to be dug at Auschwtiz. Frozen earth wouldn't have been as much of a problem as the water table at Auschwtiz. At the AR camps, there never were stationary incinerators.

This is a non sequitur, which comes across as an objection for the sake of objecting. The fact that the ovens were able to use bodies as fuel does not imply that their overall cremating capacity was infinite. Despite the need for less coke as bodies were added, the ovens had a limit and IIRC van Pelt says that they could be and were damaged by overuse (in terms of numbers of bodies burnt per day). Therefore, extra capacity was put into play.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Just noting kageki's continued refusal or inability to reply to straightforward questions asked of him on the Nazis' open air shooting of Jews in the east.

 

[Wroclaw]

OK, so there was no point.

Your inability to understand the point is not equivalent to there being no point.

Says the man who has never tried to start a fire with freshly cut wood.

Ever seen a forest fire, DZ? You have to start the fire with dried wood. You can keep it burning with fresh wood.

But the official story says that even Topf and Sohne magic ovens couldn't keep up with the demand and that burning pits needed to be dug at Auschwtiz.

Correct. There is a limit.

Frozen earth wouldn't have been as much of a problem as the water table at Auschwtiz.

Frozen earth wouldn't have been a problem because pit-burning was done primarily in the summer of 1944. The water table wasn't a problem because the SS had drained the area prior to building the Kremas. How else would they have been able to construct them underground? You're aware that Krema II was underground right?

At the AR camps, there never were stationary incinerators.

And the point?

It wasn't planned that way. The invasion was scheduled for May but got pushed back, IIRC because Mussolini got in over his head in the Balkans and needed some help. Anyway, I was actually referring to the AR camps where mass graves were dug over the winter of 1942/1943 to store the bodies of hundreds of thousands of murdered Jews until they could be dug up and incinerated after the Spring thaw.

Please demonstrate this.

The EG murderers would not have been bothered by frozen Earth because they made the Jews dig their own graves before they shot them. At least that's how it works in the movies.

Or they used a pre-existing ditch, as at Babi Yar.