Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[000063]

You can scale up from a single prisoner in a single room to estimate the work involved in killing thousands at one time.

You can do the same with crematoria although it would be more useful to look at how big agriculture disposes of animal carcasses on an industrial scale. How were the remains dealt with during the swine flu or mad cow disease incidents that involved killing all the chickens or all the cows in a country? Were they burned?

You can't simply say that something that sounds implausible is possible because nobody has ever done it before or after.

He's a 9/11 Truther too; of course he can.

 

[Wroclaw]

That would be my interpretation as well.

Of course, it would be exceedingly strange to call a routine delousing a "special" anything, wouldn't it?

Why would a gas chamber be called a bunker? What is your paradigm?

It would be called a bunker if it were placed in a bunker. This was done at Birkenau. Brush up.

I have never lost this discussion. The fact is that the diary doesn't explicitly describe extermination. No believer is going to actually concede this point but when the facts of the diary are pointed out, the conversation will shift to Kremer's testimony about the diary rather than the diary itself. That's as close to winning a concession as you get in this game.

You're joking.

The man was under orders not to be specific about what he saw in his writing. He was therefore not explicit. Nevertheless, he uses the same term that, it was pointed out by several other people, was used for extermination.

You can dance around that all you like, but it is what it is. As we also have his testimony, it's pretty much open and shut.

 

[Dogzilla]

Nice try.

First of all, my very point was that they HAD seen delousing before, because most of the men in their 40s or older had already served in the military.

Beyond that, you're conflating the soap myth with delousing. The soap myth was a definite unknown. It was not outside the realm of possibility either, given Spanner's experiments outside Danzig.

Yes, it is true that *some* men may have been through a delousing before but what did that delousing procedure look like? Was it a large scale mechanized procedure? Whatever it was it wasn't very effective because they still had lice. Besides, whatever Jewish men in the Russian army during WWI had experienced hadn't been experienced by the women and children of the community.

Beyond that, if you believe the soap myth was a definite unknown and that it was within the realm of possibility then you will concede that Jews in eastern Europe in the 1940s would have had good reason to believe the Germans were turning them into soap. Would then it be impossible for a Jew to believe that a large room for delousing is the room where Jews are cooked into soap?

 

[Dogzilla]

Well, hundreds.

Hoess said his gas chambers could accommodate 2,000 people at once.

But: No, you can't "scale up." It's a much more difficult problem, using a different variety of HCN, if HCN is even being used (compare the Reinhardt camps, e.g.). The differences are, in fact, so large, that it's virtually, if not literally, incomparable.

So you say it's possible because it can't be compared to anything else?

Yes, they were. Know why? When they weren't, they bubbled up from under the ground. Where have I heard that before...

So how did they do it?

Except it was also done in Bosnia in a much more limited way.

You just got through saying it cannot be compared to anything else!

 

[Dogzilla]

He's a 9/11 Truther too; of course he can.

Wroclaw isn't a truther, is he?

 

[Wroclaw]

Yes, it is true that *some* men may have been through a delousing before but what did that delousing procedure look like? Was it a large scale mechanized procedure? Whatever it was it wasn't very effective because they still had lice.

Huh? Who had lice?

Besides, whatever Jewish men in the Russian army during WWI had experienced hadn't been experienced by the women and children of the community.

No, but given that they were being sent to the camps together, they could have told the women and children what was being done.

Beyond that, if you believe the soap myth was a definite unknown and that it was within the realm of possibility then you will concede that Jews in eastern Europe in the 1940s would have had good reason to believe the Germans were turning them into soap.

Not quite. They had NO good reason NOT to believe it was happening.

There's a difference.

Would then it be impossible for a Jew to believe that a large room for delousing is the room where Jews are cooked into soap?

No, I just don't think such a conclusion can be used to explain why so many people testified that gassing was done — particularly eyewitnesses.

 

[Wroclaw]

Hoess said his gas chambers could accommodate 2,000 people at once.

Fine. But that doesn't mean thousands were being gassed on a regular basis.

So you say it's possible because it can't be compared to anything else?

No, I'm merely dismissing the comparison.

Do try to keep up.

So how did they do it?

See:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/03/17/fda-rule-poses-problem-handling-dead-mo-cows/

You just got through saying it cannot be compared to anything else!

No, I didn't say that. YOU said that. I said you can't compare gassing during WWII to U.S. gas chamber executions in the penal system.

 

[Wroclaw]

Wroclaw isn't a truther, is he?

Decidedly not

 

[Clayton Moore]

On his arm. Prove to me that Eric Hunt isn't lying.

http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com/

http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com/wp-content/themes/whiteboard/images/xxxtatoo02.jpg

 

[Wroclaw]

http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com/

http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com/wp-content/themes/whiteboard/images/xxxtatoo02.jpg

Ever heard of Photoshop?

 

[ComfySlippers]

Ever heard of Photoshop?

No. What is it? Please tell.

 

[Dogzilla]

Fine. But that doesn't mean thousands were being gassed on a regular basis.

OK. Just remember that as you reduce the number of people inside a gas chamber to bring it closer to something resembling reality, you need to increase the number of gassings to maintain the death toll.

No, I'm merely dismissing the comparison.

Do try to keep up.

What's the point of dismissing the comparison?

See:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/03/17/fda-rule-poses-problem-handling-dead-mo-cows/

Not really what I was looking for. Something along the lines of how long it takes to incinerate X pounds of animal carcass at Y temperature would be more helpful. But I did enjoy the quote from the article:

Missouri State Veterinarian Taylor Woods said there aren't many good options for farmers to dispose of carcasses on their own.

"There's not much of a way that the average producer can burn a cow. They can put one on a big bale of hay or put it on brush, but it takes a lot of brush to burn a cow," Woods said. "To compost a cow, you have to cut her up and that's not a job most of us like to do. And right now, you can't hardly dig a hole in the winter months."​

Requiring large amounts of fuel to burn bodies didn't seem to be a problem for the Germans, sorry, I meant Nazis. And who has problems digging a hole in frozen earth in the middle of winter. Not the Germans, sorry I meant Nazis!

 

[dafydd]

Ever heard of Photoshop?

Is it a shop where they sell photos?

 

[Wroclaw]

OK. Just remember that as you reduce the number of people inside a gas chamber to bring it closer to something resembling reality, you need to increase the number of gassings to maintain the death toll.

Except that I didn't say 2,000 were NEVER gassed. Only that it's probably the case that the number was in hundreds rather than thousands. Bear in mind that 1,999 is not "thousands." It's hundreds.

What's the point of dismissing the comparison?

To indicate that you can't compare a U.S. penal system execution of a single prisoner in a gas chamber built for one to the Nazi practice of mass gassing using Zyklon-B. No more and no less than that.

Requiring large amounts of fuel to burn bodies didn't seem to be a problem for the Germans, sorry, I meant Nazis. And who has problems digging a hole in frozen earth in the middle of winter. Not the Germans, sorry I meant Nazis!

When you are conducted mass killing in one of the world's largest forests, you hardly need to worry about fuel. Further, as has been demonstrated at Irving v. Lipstadt, the Topf und Söhne ovens required significantly less coke once they were "processing" dozens of bodies than they did if they were started cold. This was a fantastic boner on Irving's part at that trial and one from which all deniers should learn.

As for digging holes, don't forget that the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union and began mass shootings just as summer had begun — literally within one day. That was not an accident.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Jews living in the Pale of Settlement had been gravitating toward larger population centers in Russia since the May Laws passed in the late 19th century restricted them from settling anew outside of towns and boroughs. I don't know what the population of a "town" or "borough" was in Russia at that time.

By the 1940s the USSR had greatly expanded industrial production but that had been a recent development. If it was "industrialized" it was only barely so. Even in the United States at the time, roughly twenty percent of the workers were employed in agriculture (compared to three percent or so today).

The sophistication of the eastern European Jews compared to the non-Jewish population aside, the fact is that the belief that Germans were making soap out of Jews was widely circulated and accepted as true among the Jewish populations in the East in the 1940s. That belief was so well entrenched that some elderly Jews who grew up in mid-twentieth century Europe still believe it today. If these supposedly enlightened people would believe something as ridiculous as that, why would they not be frightened of a delousing procedure that they had never seen before?

Evidently you didn't grasp the obviousness of my post about Kovno: these hygienic measures were not unknowns and certainly not a prompt for hysterics. In fact, some Kovno ghetto inmates worked in the installations, whilst others simply noticed their presence and their capacity; later comments were made comparing the hygienic measures for Jews to those for German soldiers. The soap threat was different. In fact, "make you into soap" was a taunt directed at Jews.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Of course, it would be exceedingly strange to call a routine delousing a "special" anything, wouldn't it?

And, of course, the analogous word Sonderbehandlung was often used by Nazis to mean a killing action. Do we have to start posting examples or find other threads on other forums where this issue has been exhausted?

 

[kageki]

Except that I didn't say 2,000 were NEVER gassed. Only that it's probably the case that the number was in hundreds rather than thousands. Bear in mind that 1,999 is not "thousands." It's hundreds.



To indicate that you can't compare a U.S. penal system execution of a single prisoner in a gas chamber built for one to the Nazi practice of mass gassing using Zyklon-B. No more and no less than that.



When you are conducted mass killing in one of the world's largest forests, you hardly need to worry about fuel. Further, as has been demonstrated at Irving v. Lipstadt, the Topf und Söhne ovens required significantly less coke once they were "processing" dozens of bodies than they did if they were started cold. This was a fantastic boner on Irving's part at that trial and one from which all deniers should learn.

As for digging holes, don't forget that the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union and began mass shootings just as summer had begun — literally within one day. That was not an accident.

You have to be in denial not to see a relevant comparison between the gas chamber executions. The problems would only be compounded if there are more victims.

http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/31armontrout.html

After the execution, the ammonia was released and the gas expelled out of the chamber. All staff and witnesses were removed from the area. The ventilation fan ran for approximately an hour before two officers equipped with Scott air-packs (self-contained breathing apparatus which firemen use to enter smoke-filled buildings) opened the hatch of the gas chamber and removed the lead bucket containing the cyanide residue. The two officers wore rubberized disposable clothing and long rubber gloves. They hosed down the condemned man's body in the chair, paying particular attention to the hair and the clothing because of the cyanide residue, then removed him and placed him on a gurney where further decontamination took place. The officers then hosed the entire inside of the gas chamber with regular cold water.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You can scale up from a single prisoner in a single room to estimate the work involved in killing thousands at one time.

You can do the same with crematoria although it would be more useful to look at how big agriculture disposes of animal carcasses on an industrial scale. How were the remains dealt with during the swine flu or mad cow disease incidents that involved killing all the chickens or all the cows in a country? Were they burned?

You can't simply say that something that sounds implausible is possible because nobody has ever done it before or after.

The manure being spread by Dogzilla shouldn't distract kageki from the questions how he knows about the open air shootings, why he finds them to make sense, and what was their scope and purpose.

 

[MG1962]

Duh. You ask about books that you know don't exist. That's much like the questions posed about the Holocaust by the minions of the spewers of Holocaust exaggerations and outright lies.

So why tell me to google it fool, if you knew they didn't exist?

 

[LemmyCaution]

You can't simply say that something that sounds implausible is possible because nobody has ever done it before or after.

The smug and hilarious arrogance of the appeal to common sense and believability. Frankly, your feeling of what is possible and what reality should be like is neither interesting nor in any way dispositive.

"A paradox is not a conflict within reality. It is a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality should be like." -- Richard Feynman, quoted in Ian Marshall and Danah Zohar, Who’s Afraid of Schrödinger’s Cat? All the New Science Ideas You Need to Keep Up with the New Thinking, 1997