• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Every once in a while, a Holocaust denier comes along who truly defies explanation with his (or, rarely, her) ability to both be completely ignorant of history, logical, science, and (let's face it) ethics and, at the same time, so confident that he is totally right.

Having missed Tom Moran for several years*, I'm finding my longing for someone of Tommy's stature being met, slowly but surely, by Clayton Moore.

I suggest we institute some kind of memorial award** in Tom Moran's name and that Clayton be the first recipient.

Cordially,
Wroclaw

* Interested parties may references http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/
** If Tom is actually dead; no one seems to know for sure.
 
Last edited:
My words were if 2 plus million noncombatants were deported/moved EAST in 1942 their appearance and disappearance by the "mythical" gas chambers would be as noticeable as any major troop movements.


What's the basis for that assumption? Military and civilian operations are completely and wholly different.
 
You're right, killing more than 3 million people by gas chamber, at times said to be 20,000 a day, just screams nuance.

OK, I'm going to assume you actually don't understand, rather than assume that you're being deliberately obtuse.

Nevertheless, some generalities are in order: You people (by whom I mean Holocaust deniers, although the following would apply equally well to most extremists or people with extreme beliefs — and Holocaust denial certainly applies) seem to be fundamentally lacking in the ability to see things in anything other than black and white. Your "black" in this case would be that the Holocaust didn't happen; your "white" would be the above statement "killing more than 3 million people by gas chamber."

Here's the difference between the way you look at things and the little thing we'll call "the truth." You look at things such that if white above isn't true as you see it, then black MUST be true. People with functioning gray and white matter will, instead, conclude that if white isn't true, then black MIGHT be true, but some shade of gray might also be true. (Of course, it's a complicating matter here that white is, in fact, true, but let's assume for the moment it isn't. NOTE: It is.)

So I mentioned nuance, and you apply that term to the idea of three million-plus people being gassed, sometimes in numbers of 20,000 per day. The problem is that when I used the term, I used it to apply to this statement by you:

if you were too young to work, too old to work, or unable to work you were not registered and killed in Gas Chambers almost immediately upon arrival at the camps.

You did a little sleight of hand there and thought that I wouldn't notice.

NOTE: I noticed.

So anyway, here's what we have as our black and white.

White: If you were too young to work, too old to work, or unable to work you were not registered and killed in Gas Chambers almost immediately upon arrival at the camps.

Black: There was no Holocaust.

Rejecting White as above, you automatically accept Black.

White, as I noted, isn't exactly true. It was true at certain times and in certain places (ergo, the term "nuance," not about the practice itself, but rather about understanding that the practice of mass killing tended to vary over a four-plus-year period and across a continent), but not true at other times and at other places.

So I suggest:

Grey: Some people, if they were too young to work, too old to work, or unable to work, were not registered and were killed in gas chambers almost immediately upon arrival at the camps.

If your question is about the dates when this didn't happen, then I'd say it depends on the camp. I think we can safely say that for four of the camps (the Reinhart camps and Chelmno), White was almost always the case. For Auschwitz, it was the case for a big part of 1942 and 1944, less so 1943. For Majdanek, White applies the least of all, but it still applies, again between early 1942 and late 1944, but not on a consistent basis.

You may wonder why things are not so easily broken down. That's because policy shifted over time and there was a fair amount of lower-level management of protocols of mass killing at the camp level. There was also a bit of a lull in deportations between 1942 and 1944, given that most of the Jews that had been targeted by the Nazis had been shipped off to Poland, with the exception of Hungary, the third largest Jewish population in a country either under Nazi occupation or allied with Germany. They were not deported until 1944, which explains the reapplication gassing upon arrival on a very large basis in the spring and summer of that year.

I've given you a lot of chew on, so I'll leave it at that for now.
 
Since no alarm was sounded by the allies that 2 million noncombatants went missing in 1942 then I obviously believe that nowhere near 2 million noncombatants were deported to the EAST.

Here we go again...

Black: No alarm was sounded by the Allies that 2 million noncombatants went missing in 1942

White: Nowhere near 2 million noncombatants were deported to the east.

You reject Black, so you accept White.

Here your problem is not only black-and-white thinking about history, where such thinking very rarely applies, but also that your premise in Black is wrong. The Allies rose an alarm, to be sure, but they didn't think, at that point, that the Jews had been killed. They believed they were being put in camps.

That was about half-true.
 
if around 6 million Jews were shipped to "the East", what was their actual destination?

what was done with them after they got off the trains? where were they settled?

what process was taken to integrate them all?



...the allegation and claim is being made, that 6 million or so European Jews were shipped from one part of Europe to another part of Europe, and no mass-killing took place of this civilian population.

I'd like to see some evidence of this mass-movement and their current status.

We have been waiting some 2100 posts for the same answer. Treblinka was a transit camp....but too where. We never get that part.
 
Allied reconnaissance? What civilian operations? You leave your engine running in the garage?

Yeah I am sure you have heard of them. They were the guys who beat the Nazis and exposed their efforts to kill Jews. Been a couple of movies about the whole thing, suprised you've not seen any of them.
 
Allied reconnaissance?


And how much exactly do you think is revealed from reconnaissance photos taken from 40,000 feet? The cameras could not see through the roofs of railway cars. Any reconnaissance photos are strictly a snapshot of a specific location at a specific time, and requires proper interpretation by analysts.

Moreover, weather was a significant problem. For example, while Bomber Command started its offensive against Berlin in mid-November of 1943, it didn't get its first good reconnaissance photos of the city until a month later.


What civilian operations?


The German railway network was not exclusively used for military operations. Plenty of civilian passenger and commercial traffic remained.
 
My words were if 2 plus million noncombatants were deported/moved EAST in 1942 their appearance and disappearance by the "mythical" gas chambers would be as noticeable as any major troop movements.

Since no alarm was sounded by the allies that 2 million noncombatants went missing in 1942 then I obviously believe that nowhere near 2 million noncombatants were deported to the EAST.
And you continue to dodge the questions asked you about the deportations, numbers involved, etc. Typical denier.
 
My words were 2 plus million noncombatants were deported/moved EAST in 1942 their appearance and disappearance by the "mythical" gas chambers would be as noticeable as any major troop movements.

You need to read more history.

The Hofle Telegram was transmitted in early 1943 by the SS. It was intercepted by Bletchley Park, where German military signals were decoded. In 1943 the British did not know what "Einsatz Reinhardt" was, there was a typo and the telegram was not completely decoded. In 2000 the intercept was made public and the Hofle Telegram fully decrypted. It confirms the transport numbers to Action Reinhard camps as at 30Dec1942. This includes 713,555 victims being transported to Treblinka II.

The allies are normal humans, not supermen. They did their best job. You have a fantasy that somehow the allies could "know everything". I have given you an example of how they did their best during a war. If the allies had decrypted this telegram in early 1943 then perhaps they would have done more. Who knows? Hypothetical scenarios are not the same as compiling conventional history.

http://hofle-telegram.co.tv/
 
You need to read more history.

The Hofle Telegram was transmitted in early 1943 by the SS. It was intercepted by Bletchley Park, where German military signals were decoded. In 1943 the British did not know what "Einsatz Reinhardt" was, there was a typo and the telegram was not completely decoded. In 2000 the intercept was made public and the Hofle Telegram fully decrypted. It confirms the transport numbers to Action Reinhard camps as at 30Dec1942. This includes 713,555 victims being transported to Treblinka II.


There are some errors here. The telegram was fully decoded and even discussed in terms of what Einsatz Reinhardt might mean in the monthly summaries of intelligence (one figure was corrupted). Miraculously the monthly summaries even managed to correct the typo in the original.

For reasons unknown Harry Hinsley also missed these references to Einsatz Reinhardt in his magisterial four volume survey of Bletchley Park in 1980 (he was a former employee at Bletchley).
 
So you concede that the V2 factory was manned by slaves. Thank you. I'll look into the specific population further, maybe, but I'd like to ask you -- were the slave laborers treated in a manner that was consistent with other concentration camps?

Yes, I think they were treated broadly similiar or slightly better than German POWs were treated in Soviet forced labour camps 1941-1955

Or German POWs in French labour camps 1944-1947.

You might be a slimy ingenuous weasel, or maybe I wasn't being clear. I'm an eternal optimist so I'll give you benefit of doubt and assume you were confused by my lack of specificity rather than taking an opportunity to lie by pretending to misunderstand.

Specifically,

1) do you think the conditions and treatment of the slave laborers in the Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp was similar to other WW2 German concentration camps?

2)Were the housing conditions, labor management and survival rates comparable to other WW2 German concentration camps?

3) Was the population mix similar to other WW2 German concentration camps?

Please don't be a weasel. That's a crappy way to lie. If you're going to lie, be bold and confident and not slimy.

And, part B of this question, can you provide references that prove your contention that German prisoners were beaten, starved hanged and had 30% fatality rates?

Bumping this for LGR as he seems to have missed it.
 
What a joke. A discussion about treating labor, needed for a war effort, like garbage.


I thought dodos were extinct.

I don't understand your statement. Are you suggesting that treating labor for a war effort like garbage is a joke? Or do you mean that discussing the mistreatment of war labor is extinct?

Or perhaps you, like LGR, simply prefer to weasel away from questions that challenge your preconceived notions?

I demand specific, detailed answers, with references, to these questions.
 
You need to read more history.

The Hofle Telegram was transmitted in early 1943 by the SS. It was intercepted by Bletchley Park, where German military signals were decoded. In 1943 the British did not know what "Einsatz Reinhardt" was, there was a typo and the telegram was not completely decoded. In 2000 the intercept was made public and the Hofle Telegram fully decrypted. It confirms the transport numbers to Action Reinhard camps as at 30Dec1942. This includes 713,555 victims being transported to Treblinka II.

The allies are normal humans, not supermen. They did their best job. You have a fantasy that somehow the allies could "know everything". I have given you an example of how they did their best during a war. If the allies had decrypted this telegram in early 1943 then perhaps they would have done more. Who knows? Hypothetical scenarios are not the same as compiling conventional history.

http://hofle-telegram.co.tv/

Deportations to Treblinka came mainly from the ghettos of the Warsaw and Radom districts in Generalgouvernement. Between late July and September 1942, the Germans deported around 265,000 Jews from the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka. Between August and November 1942, SS and police authorities deported around 346,000 Jews to Treblinka II from the Radom District. From October 1942 until February 1943, the Germans deported more than 110,000 Jews from the Bialystok District (a section of German-occupied Poland that was attached administratively to German East Prussia) to Treblinka II. Treblinka also received transports of at least 33,300 Jews from District Lublin.

More lies from the house of ushmm.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005193

610,000 Jewish children, women, and men left and ARRIVED in Treblinka and nobody noticed. And they all were killed in secret. It always comes back to that.

Between July and November 1942, 610,000 Jewish children, women, and men were deported to Treblinka and killed. All telephones in Poland were out of service and mail service was postponed.
 
Allied reconnaissance?

And how much exactly do you think is revealed from reconnaissance photos taken from 40,000 feet? The cameras could not see through the roofs of railway cars. Any reconnaissance photos are strictly a snapshot of a specific location at a specific time, and requires proper interpretation by analysts.


Just in case you've forgotten.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom