Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Matthew Ellard]

I didn't forget. I said they didn't document an unspecific number of things that might be consistent with dead fauna in the area. That's the 2 hectares of whatever they saw.

I see, so you are like Saggy and haven't read the report either...... "During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin"

Would you like to explain where the 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka came from?

Would you like to explain why "Transit camp Treblinka" needed 7.5 metre deep pits and why human remains were found in them?

Would you like to explain why both commanding officers Franz and Stangl confessed and stated that Treblinka was an execution camp?

Partial translation of Judge Lukaszkiewicz's Report.http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html

No. Treblinka wasn't an extermination camp. The Hoefle telegram says nothing about executions. If all those people were murdered at the camp, where did they go?

Please read the report before posting again. The people murdered at the camp were cremated and thus 20,000 square metres of human ash was found at Treblinka.

The holocaust deniers Graf and Mottogno concluded in their "paper" Treblinka: Extermination camp or Transit Camp that
"Above all, it is entirely unclear where the Jews deported to Treblinka ultimately wound up"
So why do they think it was a transit camp Dogzilla?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I know you're not very bright but can you explain why a poor quality black and white photo of some folks standing somewhere looks like a square bomb crater? Or any crater at all?

Because,

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to remove breach. Cut out the name-calling, please.

, Saggy said it was a "bomb crater" when it's obviously isn't. Can't you read?

 

[Nick Terry]

If you want to say they were murdered at the camp, you need to show evidence of this. Fantastical descriptions of their demise by a few former prisoners and confessions by Germans in custody of the Allies are not adequate except to the truly gullible.

The rational person knows that there are sometimes unknowns in the world. The scientist tries to discover unknowns through experimentation.

Take the moon illusion. We know the moon appears larger on the horizon than when it is directly above the observer. We don't really know why the brain tricks us in this way. A person might believe that when observing the moon on the horizon, the atmosphere of the earth is diffusing the image of the moon. Because there is more atmosphere through which to observe the moon on the horizon than when the moon is straight overhead, the moon obviously appears larger.

The scientist will respond by saying that that is not the reason. The person will then ask why the moon illusion occurs. The scientist will say that he doesn't know. Would the person advocating the atmopheric diffusion theory then be correct to say that, well if you don't have any better explanation then mine is correct?

No, you wouldn't. Similarly, your explanation of what happened to everybody sent to Treblinka needs to be tested in the real world.

We have a bunch of people sent to Treblinka. There we lose track of them. So then we develop some possible theories of what happened to them. You have the idea fixed in your mind that anybody whose whereabouts are unknown must have been killed by the Nazis. There's no reason to believe that is true. That is the first flaw in your thinking but it's not a fatal flaw.

You can salvage your theory but you need to explain how they were killed. The explanation of how they were killed would leave clear evidence behind. That evidence isn't there. Period. Full stop. Your explanation relies on personal gullibility and fails at this point.

There's the theory that they were deloused and went elsewhere. The evidence on site is consistent with it being a transit camp. It may not be perfect but when you are looking at two competing theories, the one that doesn't contain any impossibilities is probably the best one. So the transit camp explanation is the best explanation.

If you want us to believe the Jews were all murdered at Treblinka, you need to explain how it was done in a way that could work and then provide evidence that it did.

Right now, you have a scenario that insults the intelligence of any thinking person and no evidence to back it up.

So I'll ask the same question again from which you continually run. If they were all murdered at this camp, where did they go?

Not even a nice try, but a tedious attempt to avoid the issue. Lemmy Caution summed up the problem perfectly

Please summarize the evidence for the AR camps being death camps.

Please summarize the evidence for the AR camps being delousing/transit camps.

Evidence can include, of course, physical remains and other physical traces but is not restricted to this sort of evidence.

We can then see if anyone can add to either of your summaries and finally we can compare the two summaries, doing away with the rest of your obfuscatory rhetoric.

As you know full well that the mass graves tedium has been discussed ad nauseam on this very thread and elsewhere, by me among others, then your attempt to shift the discussion away from the question you clearly do not want to answer is entirely transparent.

Are you even aware that the sole revisionist book on Treblinka discusses 'transit'? Surely you must have downloaded Mattogno and Graf's book on Treblinka by now. Are you telling us that Mattogno and Graf wasted their time writing several chapters purporting to prove 'transit' because you haven't bothered to read them?

Or is it that you have read them, and have thought through the problem, and realise the transit camp conjecture is so hopelessly vague and unsubstantiated that you will do everything in your power to avoid discussing the subject?

There have been many long posts written on this forum discussing the logistics of burying and exhuming bodies, cremating them and disposing of the cremains. I know this because I have written some of them. But there have been no posts written by you or any other denier explaining the logistics of 'transit' or 'resettlement'.

Instead we get a continual stream of obfuscation, avoidance and attempts to change the subject back to mass graves.

Do you honestly think your avoidance tactics are passing unnoticed? At least a dozen posters have asked the very simple question 'so what happened to them then' and you are manifestly unable to answer it.

 

[Nick Terry]

...and is searchable using normative database query language by anybody. They've been very careful to warn us that this archive is too complex for mere mortals and that special software needs to be written because privacy concerns have made the signatory countries--especially the Germans--resistant to the sensitivity of the remaining survivors who need access to information in a timely fashion so it will require further study to determine the best way to organize the data to be machine readable so machines can read it even though it is all beyond the comprehension of a raw throated animal scream that deafens us with the unheard cacophony repeated over and over again, "why?"

I know enough about database programming to appreciate the humongous effort it would take to digitize millions of records. But it could be done. What makes their job here far more difficult is to efficiently organize the data in a way that will make it possible for one person to find out about one other person but won't allow anybody to perform a query along the lines of "Jews" "special acted" "total" and get a number nowhere near six million.

When will deniers get it through their thick skulls that the number is closer to five million and that 80% of the victims came from Poland and the Soviet Union?

 

[LemmyCaution]

You do realize that every photo link you provide as evidence that Treblinka functioned the way you say it functioned is evidence that you don't have any real evidence, don't you?

Keep up the good work! This is how lurkers become revisionists.

So come on, summarize the evidence for Treblinka (and Belzec and Sobibor) being extermination camps. Summarize the evidence that they were merely delousing/transit waystations. Let others fill in what you've missed. Compare the two summaries.

 

[Nick Terry]

There are some people who change their minds. I initially entered these forums looking for answers to some of the questions I had. I found it impossible that something as big as the holocaust could be faked. Nothing the deniers said convinced me of anything. It's what the believers said that forced me to accept that there are parts of the holocaust that are simply not true.

But you were a denier from your very first post on this forum. Please link to whatever other forum you frequented before turning up here as a fully-fledged Holocaust deniers and prove it was really "what the believers said".

 

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

The Hoefle telegram says nothing about executions.

We have eyewitness testimony, that says, Treblinka was an extermination camp.
We have perpetrator testimony, that says, Treblinka was an extermination camp.
We have photos and report, that show us bones and ashes in huge quantities at this site, which fits to the story of the perpetrators and eyewitnesses.

You say it was a transit camp and what evidence do you got? Alright, absolutly *********** nothing.

But to that Hoefle Telegram:

Again, you have no evidence for your claim, but lets look at another document, that also mentions the total number of the Hoefle Telegram: The Korherr Report:

The important part is this:

4. Transportierung von Juden aus den
Ostprovinzen nach dem russischen
Osten: ............................1 449 692 "
Es wurden durchgeschleust
durch die Lager im General-
gouvernement..................... 1 274 166 Juden
durch die Lager im Warthegau..... 145 301 Juden

The number "1 274 166" is the same as in the Hoefle Telegram. Now what the hell means "durchgeschleust"? Theoretically it's just means, that they were moved or sifted (and this would be the right part of my sentence for that lying moron saggy to quote-mine), but there is another document we can look at:

The important part is this:

Der Reichsführer SS hat Ihren statistischen
Bericht über "Die Endlösung der europäischen Judenfrage"
erhalten. Er wünscht, dass an keiner Stelle von "Sonderbehand-
lung der Juden" gesprochen wird . Auf Seite 9, Punkt 4, muß es
folgendermaßen heißen:

"Transportierung von Juden aus den
Ostprovinzen nach dem russischen Osten:
Es wurden durchgeschleust
durch die Lager im Generalgouvernement .....
durch die Lager im Warthegau ..............."[1]

Eine andere Formulierung darf nicht genommen werden.
Ich sende das vom Reichsführer-SS bereits abgezeichnete Exemplar
des Berichtes zurück mit der Bitte, diese Seite 9 entsprechend
abzuändern und es wieder zurückzusenden.

The part, that is quoted in this letter, is the part, that we got above, but without the numbers. And here we learn, that instead of the words "Sonderbehandlung der Juden" (=special treatment of the jews), it should read "durchgeschleust" (=sifted). So in the orginal version of the Korherr Report it read "Sonderbehandlung".

Why would they change that word? Because every *********** idiot already knew what it meant and they needed a new code word! Now if you are really stupid enough, to tell us, that "Sonderbehandlung" doesn't mean "killing", keep in mind, that there is a bunch of documents and perpetrator testimonies, that tell us different.

So the numbers in the Hoefle Telegram are the people, that were "sonderbehandelt". Gee, a camp that killed 713.555 in a half year. Sounds like an extermination camp to me and similar goes for Sobibor and Belzec.

That's the holohoax mantra. But, in this case they're saying absence of evidence is evidence ! That's the remarkable part.

And another strawman and therefor lie. You just can't stop lying.

Nobody says, you are wrong because you have no evidence. You are wrong because you ignore the evidence, that demolishes your stupid nazi fantasies. And on the other hand you have absolutly no evidence to counter the evil "jewish" evidence. And btw believing something without having any rational reason is also BS. We call that faith and thats all you conspiracy nuts got.

 

[LemmyCaution]

We have eyewitness testimony, that says, Treblinka was an extermination camp.
We have perpetrator testimony, that says, Treblinka was an extermination camp.
We have photos and report, that show us bones and ashes in huge quantities at this site, which fits to the story of the perpetrators and eyewitnesses.

You say it was a transit camp and what evidence do you got? Alright, absolutly *********** nothing.

But to that Hoefle Telegram: . . .

Judging from this thread, he is dishonest and a bit ignorant. If he won't compare the evidence for the two positions, he is probably a coward too.

 

[little grey rabbit]

You say it was a transit camp and what evidence do you got? Alright, absolutly *********** nothing.

The auschwitz museum has two documents stating some thousands of Jews were transferred to Auschwitz from "Durchgangslager Malkina"

So there are more documents that refer to Treblinka as a Transit Camp than there are verified mass graves

 

[LemmyCaution]

The auschwitz museum has two documents stating some thousands of Jews were transferred to Auschwitz from "Durchgangslager Malkina"

So there are more documents that refer to Treblinka as a Transit Camp than there are verified mass graves

Not to bring up unpleasantness, but Auschwitz wasn't a rest home "in the east" exactly.

Would you be so kind as to point to those documents? And also to help Dogzilla with a full comparison of evidence for the two positions, rather than sticking to your usual "droppings" methodology?

 

[little grey rabbit]

Not to bring up unpleasantness, but Auschwitz wasn't a rest home "in the east" exactly.

Would you be so kind as to point to those documents? And also to help Dogzilla with a full comparison of evidence for the two positions, rather than sticking to your usual "droppings" methodology?

I don't have a copy of them myself, but I believe they are fully referenced in the Kalendarium of Auschwitz - entry for December 10 and December 12 1942

 

[dafydd]

And your evidence that these people never existed would be....?

You are no different than a 9/11 Truther or a Creationist-
You are making an argument from ignorance.

There are none so ignorant as Holocaust deniers. I could drum up about an atom's worth of respect for them if they told us why they hate Jews,but they never do. Saggy,Doggy and Rabbi,why do you hate Jews?

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

There are none so ignorant as Holocaust deniers. I could drum up about an atom's worth of respect for them if they told us why they hate Jews,but they never do. Saggy,Doggy and Rabbi,why do you hate Jews?

Given how these Holocaust deniars have such admiration for Hitler and the Nazis, and share their hatred for all Jews, I'm surprised they deny the Holocaust- One would expect them to boast about the Holocaust. Their dream is to see every last Jew wiped out- why aren't these psychopaths boasting about the millons of Jews that were murdered by their Nazi scum heroes? It's suprising they would deny an an act of mass murder that the modern neo Nazis would fully endorse..On some level do they accept that the Nazis were monsters, and are ashamed to admit Nazi crimes against humanity, or are they simply ignorant of history?

Holocaust denairs cannot frame their arguments in any logical context, as their worldview is warped by hatred of the Jews. They see the Jews as the villians, and the Nazis as the victims

 

[dafydd]

Given how these Holocaust deniars have such admiration for Hitler and the Nazis, and share their hatred for all Jews, I'm surprised they deny the Holocaust- One would expect them to boast about the Holocaust. Their dream is to see every last Jew wiped out- why aren't these psychopaths boasting about the millons of Jews that were murdered by their Nazi scum heroes? It's suprising they would deny an an act of mass murder that the modern neo Nazis would fully endorse..On some level do they accept that the Nazis were monsters, and are ashamed to admit Nazi crimes against humanity, or are they simply ignorant of history?

Holocaust denairs cannot frame their arguments in any logical context, as their worldview is warped by hatred of the Jews. They see the Jews as the villians, and the Nazis as the victims

The pyschology of the denier is very puzzling. Hating Jews but denying the Holocaust. Very odd. I was watching a documentary about American Neo Nazis and some of them spent time denying. The very last words in the program were spoken by one of these half-men who turned to the camera and said
'The Holocaust,coming to a town near you soon!'
They are not the brightest buttons in the box.

 

[Saggy]

There are none so ignorant as Holocaust deniers. I could drum up about an atom's worth of respect for them if they told us why they hate Jews,but they never do. Saggy,Doggy and Rabbi,why do you hate Jews?

The question is not why do deniers hate the Jews, but rather, why do the Jews hate non-Jews. Here is some insight from the beginning I. Shahak's book ....

Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years

By Israel Shahak, with a foreword by Gore Vidal. Published by Pluto Press (London, 1994).

When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the races of man in their intense hatred and contempt for all races but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him. For the next 1,900 years other investigators came to similar conclusions, either from a study of the Jews' religious writings or from a study of the Jews' behavior toward non-Jews.

 

[dafydd]

The question is not why do deniers hate the Jews, but rather, why do the Jews hate non-Jews. Here is some insight from the beginning I. Shahak's book ....

Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years

By Israel Shahak, with a foreword by Gore Vidal. Published by Pluto Press (London, 1994).

When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the races of man in their intense hatred and contempt for all races but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him. For the next 1,900 years other investigators came to similar conclusions, either from a study of the Jews' religious writings or from a study of the Jews' behavior toward non-Jews.

Why do you hate Jews? Why won't you answer that question? I know that you are a denier,but surely you recognize a question when you see one? Shakak,never heard of him.

 

[abaddon]

The question is not why do deniers hate the Jews, but rather, why do the Jews hate non-Jews. Here is some insight from the beginning I. Shahak's book ....

Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years

By Israel Shahak, with a foreword by Gore Vidal. Published by Pluto Press (London, 1994).

When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the races of man in their intense hatred and contempt for all races but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him. For the next 1,900 years other investigators came to similar conclusions, either from a study of the Jews' religious writings or from a study of the Jews' behavior toward non-Jews.

Right. Da joos dunnit.

As usual.

Got any new horse corpse to flog?

 

[Saggy]

Shakak,never heard of him.

Well, you should look him up. Tacitus too.

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

The question is not why do deniers hate the Jews, but rather, why do the Jews hate non-Jews. .

Nice projection there....
Tell me, do you think the Nazis were oppressed by the Jews?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I don't have a copy of them myself, but I believe they are fully referenced in the Kalendarium of Auschwitz - entry for December 10 and December 12 1942

Of course you don't. And the documents were both dated and not dated.

On 10 Dec, as you know the Calendar says, the transport that Czech reported coming from Malkinia brought "Approximately 2,500 Jewish men, women, and children" to Auschwitz; "After the selection, 524 men are admitted to the camp and receive Nos. 81400-81923. The remaining 1,976 people are killed in the gas chambers." (No reference) On this same day, Salmen Lewenthal was admitted to the camp.

The transport recorded from Malkinia on 12 Dec worked out pretty much the same: "The transport consisted of approximately 2,000 Jewish men, women, and children. After the selection of 422 men and women, the remaining 1,578 people are killed in the gas chambers." (No reference)

These references in Czech do not seem to support a shipment of Jews through a hygienic way-station to a life of rest, or toil, in the east; rather, the transports having gone southeast, you may inadvertently have helped us locate Chaim Rumkowski after all--and not in Пермь.