Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Clayton Moore]

OK, see that sentence you wrote above? Take "and then kill them" out of the sentence, and you now have a sentence that is 100% true.

The arrests and deportations of Jews from all over Europe, amounting to, in fact, more than three million, was reported in all of the mass media. When I did my NYTimes search, I merely sent you the earliest article that came up. There were literally dozens of similar stories over a six-year period in the Times, not to mention hundreds of other newspapers, as well as the radio and MovieTone News.

But you are unwilling or unable to do any research, relying merely on the stupid things that idiots have told you or resting happily on your own ignorance.

Now, did the world find out about them being killed? Within a year, the news was out to at least some parties, notably the U.S. and U.K. governments via the Polish underground. You should read a book now and then — on this point, I'd suggest Peter Novick's The Holocaust in American Life to learn about the U.S. gov't reaction to knowledge about the Holocaust.

But claiming no one knew about deportations is just breathtakingly retarded. And denying that people knew within a year about the exterminations going on — if not sooner — is also pretty dumb.

Wake up. What is dumb is your ignoring that I'm talking about Jewish people being killed after being moved/deported/arrested.

Again you're saying that the world knew that all those people AND non Jews were taken to Poland. Then all but a few were killed and no one who knew they were in Poland realized that they were killed.

 

[Wroclaw]

Again you're saying that the world knew that all those people AND non Jews were taken to Poland. Then all but a few were killed and no one who knew they were in Poland realized that they were killed.

Depends on when you're talking about. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're talking about the period through the end of 1942. Then, yes, my answer is that — with the exception of some portions of the Polish underground, some members of the SS and Nazi elite, and some heads of state and government in Europe and North America — no one who knew these deportees were in Poland also knew for sure they were being killed. I'm sure it was highly suspected.

Is there some reason why that surprises you? Don't you understand the purpose of concentrating people in the first place? And taking away their free speech? And disarming them all beforehand?

 

[Corsair 115]

Of course not.

Then why do you fight so hard to claim the Holocaust is fake? What ultimate difference does it make? Even if you say roughly six million Jews weren't exterminated in camps, roughly five million non-Jews were also exterminated in camps. So you're still left with a despicable regime.

One must remember though that in WWII the losers got soul possession of the atrocities.

Really? To this day the debate over the strategic bombing offensive continues on as to whether it was more atrocity than militarily justified.

 

[dafydd]

Wake up. What is dumb is your ignoring that I'm talking about Jewish people being killed after being moved/deported/arrested.

Again you're saying that the world knew that all those people AND non Jews were taken to Poland. Then all but a few were killed and no one who knew they were in Poland realized that they were killed.

In which parallel world did that take place?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Then why do you fight so hard to claim the Holocaust is fake? What ultimate difference does it make? Even if you say roughly six million Jews weren't exterminated in camps, roughly five million non-Jews were also exterminated in camps. So you're still left with a despicable regime.





Really? To this day the debate over the strategic bombing offensive continues on as to whether it was more atrocity than militarily justified.

Which is why I used the word soul. Because Germany lost the war it alone receives eternal damning. To even say otherwise results in the spewing of insults and hate, this thread attests to that, and, in many countries, arrest.

 

[Corsair 115]

Which is why I used the word soul. Because Germany lost the war it alone receives eternal damning.

No, it doesn't receive eternal damning for losing the war. Lots of nations have lost wars throughout history. It does, however, carry responsibility for allowing a despicable regime like the Nazis to come to power. But then other nations also have to carry responsibility for their less-than-noble regimes. Germany's case is perhaps the most egregious, but is certainly not the only one.

 

[carlitos]

bump

One more try. Again, only bumping this because I genuinely want to know if he means World War I, and I'd like to know what "list" is being discussed.

With apologies for de-lurking here.

The list was the absolute truth and totaled around the often used, before and after World War I, SIX MILLION.

He has posted this at least twice, if not more. Does he really mean World War I? What "list" is he referring to?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Then why do you fight so hard to claim the Holocaust is fake?

Because the Holocaust demands that all Germans and Poles involved with the camps were complicit in atrocities against children. There's no politics that justify the harming of children. And this accusation that German's and Pole's were okay with a genocide against children crosses a line of sensibility into madness and blind hatred.
That line crossed proves that most all before were also lies.



What ultimate difference does it make?

What difference does any lie make? You tell me what has happened Germans and Germany after WWII?

Even if you say roughly six million Jews weren't exterminated in camps, roughly five million non-Jews were also exterminated in camps.

If five million non-Jews were also exterminated in camps where are the testimonies and the outrage of the survivors?

Basically the lying and the subsequent far fetched explanations became tall tales reminiscent of mythology.

 

[dafydd]

Which is why I used the word soul. Because Germany lost the war it alone receives eternal damning. To even say otherwise results in the spewing of insults and hate, this thread attests to that, and, in many countries, arrest.

Sole is the word that you are groping for.

 

[dafydd]

Basically the lying and the subsequent far fetched explanations became tall tales reminiscent of mythology.

Evidence of these alleged lies? Repeating yourself parrot fashion will not make it true. Boring.

 

[Corsair 115]

Because the Holocaust demands that all Germans and Poles involved with the camps were complicit in atrocities against children.

What exactly do you mean by "involved with the camps"? Those who worked in the camps in one capacity or another?

There's no politics that justify the harming of children.

You must therefore be quite upset with the Combined Bomber Offensive, as it surely harmed a lot of children. (And adults.)

And this accusation that German's and Pole's were okay with a genocide against children crosses a line of sensibility into madness and blind hatred.

There have been numerous cases of genocide in history. What happened in WWII was not unique on that point. What did make it different was that the extermination of people was industrialized.

You tell me what has happened Germans and Germany after WWII?

Germany and the German people have seemed to do quite well in the decades following the war. They rebuilt their shattered nation into an economic power and (almost entirely) expunged the madness of Nazism from their politics, society, and culture. Things to be commended, it seems to me.

If five million non-Jews were also exterminated in camps where are the testimonies and the outrage of the survivors?

Ah, so you don't just reject it was millions of Jews who were killed in the concentration camps, you likewise reject millions of non-Jews were killed in them as well. Unfortunately for you, on both counts, the Nazis themselves kept meticulous records of their activities, many of which survived the war and were eventually used against the perpetrators.

 

[Clayton Moore]

So if I show you newspaper reports from 1942 indicating Jews from all over Europe being sent to a concentration camp in and around a Polish town called Oswieçim, then what would you say?

Do you know how to say that town's name in German?

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/mov_pages/03_mov.html

 

[LemmyCaution]

What does that even mean?

That Jewish people in Germany knew millions were being killed in Poland and wrote it in their diary but didn't tell anyone/other Jewish people?

That Jewish people in Germany knew millions were being killed in Poland and wrote it in their diary but even though they spread the word a million or more Jewish people decided to chance it?

No, Klemperer learned about the murders from other Jews. And you have still ignored the papers from Allied nations covering the deportations and executions, which both Wroclaw and I have posted. And you ignored my point that whilst knowledge spread, it spread unevenly and not everyone knew or believed what was being said. And you ignored my point that even ghetto underground newspapers ran stories on the killings.

And you compound all this by adding a nonsensical phrase, "decided to chance it." Given the circumstances, including force of arms used against Jews, as already described earlier in this thread, your choice of words is both stupid and obnoxious.

Some Jews fled, many more, lacking the opportunity and a place to go, didn't. some organized resistance. Shockingly, there were different individual responses. Go figure.

 

[LemmyCaution]

OK, see that sentence you wrote above? Take "and then kill them" out of the sentence, and you now have a sentence that is 100% true.

The arrests and deportations of Jews from all over Europe, amounting to, in fact, more than three million, was reported in all of the mass media. When I did my NYTimes search, I merely sent you the earliest article that came up. There were literally dozens of similar stories over a six-year period in the Times, not to mention hundreds of other newspapers, as well as the radio and MovieTone News.

But you are unwilling or unable to do any research, relying merely on the stupid things that idiots have told you or resting happily on your own ignorance.

Now, did the world find out about them being killed? Within a year, the news was out to at least some parties, notably the U.S. and U.K. governments via the Polish underground. You should read a book now and then — on this point, I'd suggest Peter Novick's The Holocaust in American Life to learn about the U.S. gov't reaction to knowledge about the Holocaust.

But claiming no one knew about deportations is just breathtakingly retarded. And denying that people knew within a year about the exterminations going on — if not sooner — is also pretty dumb.

If Clayton has trouble reading the text in these links -- like Wroclaw I searched and grabbed the first few I found -- he will see that we can add awareness of mass murder to awareness of deportations.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&pg=6861,3990482&dq=jews+extermination&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=2137,227611&dq=jews+extermination&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&pg=7097,6474709&dq=jews+extermination&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&pg=4310,4343767&dq=jews+extermination&hl=en

 

[LemmyCaution]

Depends on when you're talking about. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're talking about the period through the end of 1942. Then, yes, my answer is that — with the exception of some portions of the Polish underground, some members of the SS and Nazi elite, and some heads of state and government in Europe and North America — no one who knew these deportees were in Poland also knew for sure they were being killed. I'm sure it was highly suspected.

Is there some reason why that surprises you? Don't you understand the purpose of concentrating people in the first place? And taking away their free speech? And disarming them all beforehand?

During spring and summer 1942, as word of the open-air shootings in Lithuania and other Russian territory filtered in, as word about Chelmno came from an escapee, and as Lublin and many smaller Polish towns were emptied of Jews, many Jews in Warsaw were putting together what was happening. They wrote about their fears and what facts they had in diaries, underground newspapers, and documents of the Oyneg Shabes.

And in areas where open-air executions were conducted, like Kaunus or Vilnius, of course, where family members, neighbors, friends, and acquaintances were "snatched" and taken off somewhere, where a few escapees from the pits and forts where Jews were murdered en masse brought back testimony, some Jews' knowledge and understanding were by and large more certain and earlier than among Polish Jews in ghettos; thus Abba Kovner in Vilnius famously declared, on the occasion of the founding of the ghetto underground on 1 January 1942, "Of those taken through the gates of the ghetto not a single one has returned. All the Gestapo roads lead to Ponar, and Ponar means death. . . . Ponar is not a concentration camp. They have all been shot there. Hitler plans to destroy all the Jews of Europe, and the Jews of Lithuania have been chosen as the first line."

Clayton's uninformed musings in this thread are totally bellevue.

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, Klemperer learned about the murders from other Jews. And you have still ignored the papers from Allied nations covering the deportations and executions, which both Wroclaw and I have posted. And you ignored my point that whilst knowledge spread, it spread unevenly and not everyone knew or believed what was being said. And you ignored my point that even ghetto underground newspapers ran stories on the killings.

And you compound all this by adding a nonsensical phrase, given the circumstances including force of arms used against Jews, as already described earlier in this thread, "decided to chance it." Your choice of words is both stupid and obnoxious. Some Jews fled, many more, lacking the opportunity and a place to go, didn't. some organized resistance. Shockingly, there were different individual responses. Go figure.

You're talking about incidents being reported and inaction.

I'm saying that if there was information reported about millions a year being killed I assure you action would have been taken.


Once again a believer gets all pissy when I say Jewish people would have known if millions were being killed because they were NOT stupid.

So did they know or were they stupid?

 

[LemmyCaution]

You're talking about incidents being reported and inaction.

I'm saying that if there was information reported about millions a year being killed I assure you action would have been taken.


Once again a believer gets all pissy when I say Jewish people would have known if millions were being killed because they were NOT stupid.

So did they know or were they stupid?

Well, I mentioned action (organized resistance, flight), and earlier in this thread I and others mentioned warnings by the Allies of punishment including the death penalty for the commission of these atrocities--and the Allies did indeed hold war crimes trials and execute those found guilty. And Wroclaw mentioned Polish rescuers of Jews. And you ignore that world Jewish organizations, and some people within the Polish resistance, were beseeching Allied governments to do more.

And then you twist yourself all up again by ignoring now many posts citing specific knowledge, including links to contemporary newspaper articles, and you forget your disclaimer about action and write "when I say the Jewish people would have known." Many did, many didn't, some acted, some didn't. You really are ill crazy along with being benighted.

 

[tsig]

Wake up. What is dumb is your ignoring that I'm talking about Jewish people being killed after being moved/deported/arrested.

Again you're saying that the world knew that all those people AND non Jews were taken to Poland. Then all but a few were killed and no one who knew they were in Poland realized that they were killed.

Your argument is coming apart at the seams. One sentence doesn't seem to know what the other sentence is doing.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Well, I mentioned action (organized resistance, flight), and earlier in this thread I and others mentioned warnings by the Allies of punishment including the death penalty for the commission of these atrocities--and the Allies did indeed hold war crimes trials and execute those found guilty. And Wroclaw mentioned Polish rescuers of Jews. And you ignore that world Jewish organizations, and some people within the Polish resistance, were beseeching Allied governments to do more.

And then you twist yourself all up again by ignoring now many posts citing specific knowledge, including links to contemporary newspaper articles, and you forget your disclaimer about action and write "when I say the Jewish people would have known." Many did, many didn't, some acted, some didn't. You really are ill crazy along with being benighted.

Gotcha. The European Jewish people of the 40s were stupid.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Gotcha. The European Jewish people of the 40s were stupid.

You need to learn how to read one of these days.