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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Team Holocaust are in a quagmire. And there is no way to lie their way out of it.
Here is someone who is not only allergic to reading a book but who cannot read and comprehend the posts in this thread.

Does he think Nick Terry or I to be surprised by the problem of mixed marriages and Mischlinge in German Jewish policy? Especially when Peter Longerich (remember him? he's the historian whose statement denier LGR distorted on purpose earlier in this thread) wrote this of how Wannsee approach these "marginal" groups, in Holocaust: "the category of those to be deported had to be established: the status of Mischlinge and those married to non-Jews had to be clarified. . . . However, by being included in the detailed discussion of the problems surrounding Mischlinge and 'mixed marriages', the representatives of the ministerial bureaucracy came to share knowledge of and responsibility for the 'Final Solution'. For, with the concerns they raised against the inclusion of the marginal groups in the deportations, the representatives of the ministerial bureaucracy had made it plain that they had no concerns about the principle of deportation per se."

Does he imagine that neither Nick Terry nor I would not be aware of the different interpretations of the Rosenstrasse incident? Especially when we have both posted a number of times that arguing interpretation is one of the core things historians do - the Third Reich and the Holocaust included. When I posted about two differing interpretations of the Rosenstrasse event, and then spelled out the differences, to show the folly of denial's "argumentum ad monumentum."

The only quagmire here is the one that has deniers trapped in ignorance of the issues that are background to events they are discussing - and has them trying to keep up by consulting Google and Wikipedia to figure out how to rationalize arguments they have dumped into the thread.

It's pretty funny actually. But, as some readers, carlitos a few weeks ago and now De_Bunk, point out, this folly does raise a question about what the point is.
 
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Deporting Jews is what actually happened. Nobody says Jews weren't deported. The Nuremberg Laws and the Wannsee protocols are pieces of evidence that Jews were marginalized and that they were deported. Your review of Nazi policy towards the Jews and how it was different for German Jews vs Polish Jews and the political considerations when dealing with Jews in different countries and how different classes of Jews (e.g., half-Jews, Jewish veterans, etc.) was a concise, reasonably accurate summary that is quite helpful for some of the people here who aren't quite up to speed on the topic under discussion. But everything you talked about was about deportation. You even used the D word throughout.
Here is Dogzilla's second opportunity in two days to enlighten us with the denier research and argument on where Europe's Jews were deported to.
 
Sometimes you certainly do outdo yourself. You have the Germans killing millions of people 24/7, without compunction, and, stop the clock, they are somehow concerned with what they could freaking get away with?

The more you elaborate that the Germans at any time were concerned about the consequences of their actions while supposedly killing millions of noncombatants in manners as hellish in the history of man the more clumsy and blunderous your facile explanation becomes.
Please show where Nick Terry has ever argued what you claim here. (Hint: You might start by reading the critique of Mattogno, Graf, and Kues he recently co-authored - and then re-reading this post, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7931617&postcount=9038.) Then please define "Jew."
 
Clayton,
your disbelief does not change the facts. You seem to be entirely unaware of the Posen speech for example. Where Himmler clearly states the dilemma of "how can we get away with mass murder?"



The evacuation of the Jews



Reading Himmler's speech in its entirety, rather than the usual out-of-context quotations, results in a new level of understanding. Brief, out-of-context quotations have been used to support the orthodox Holocaust story since the end of the Second World War. For example, Lucy Dawidowicz cited the Himmler speech in her book, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945. She reproduced however only 197 of the more than 24,000 words and these with a translation which directly supports her thesis. Dawidowicz is not alone in the misleading use of the Posen speech. Gerald Reitlinger, in his volume, The Final Solution also quotes from the Posen speech. Reitlinger reproduces 205 of the 24,000 words.

Carlos Porter has also provided interesting insights in his translation of the various controversial terms used by Himmler: ausrotten, ausmerzen, umbringen and totschlagen. Besides his translation of these German terms, Porter shows that all of these terms are used multiple times during the speech and that each is used at least once in a figurative sense. The less suspicious phrases in which these terms are used are never quoted in the traditional literature.

Many of those who accept the orthodox version of the Holocaust story refuse to accept Porter's translation of Ausrottung, and the other terms which are typically translated to mean extermination. Porter's translation shows that there can be a benign interpretation of these words, especially when taken within the context of the entire speech.

In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of Ausrottung would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, Judenevakuierung, or evacuation of the Jews, not extermination.

Why is so much time spent considering the text of this particular speech from 1943? The Posen speech has been called the "best evidence" to rebut the claims that the Holocaust is a myth. Before being moved to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, Himmler's speech was housed at the National Archives near the main entrance to the building only a few yards from the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. Clearly, the fundamentalist interpretation of this document provides one of the primary justifications for the power structure of our post-World-War-II society. -- Richard A.Widmann


http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconhh.html
 
Clayton,
your disbelief does not change the facts. You seem to be entirely unaware of the Posen speech for example. Where Himmler clearly states the dilemma of "how can we get away with mass murder?"
Speaking of Posen . . . again . . . I am mildly curious about how deniers interpret this statement made by Himmler, which I posted previously, made a couple months after the Posen address:
Why should anything come between Muslims in Europe and in the whole world and us Germans? We have the same aims. There can be no more solid a basis for living together than common aims and common ideals. For 200 years Germany has not had the slightest cause for friction with Islam [ . . . ] Now we Germans and you in this division, you Muslims, share a common feeling of gratitude that God—you call him Allah, but it’s the same—has sent our tormented European nations the Führer, the Führer who will rid first Europe and then the whole world of the Jews, these enemies of our Reich, who robbed us of victory in 1918 so that the sacrifice of two million dead was in vain. They are also your enemies, for the Jew has been your enemy from time immemorial.
Himmler speech, BAB, NS 19/4013, 11 January 1944

It's a minor point, of course, just a passage in a speech by a figure in the Third Reich and NSDAP; clarifying what the passage means is, of course, nowhere near as important as the work Dogzilla is doing explaining how the Jaeger Report is evidence of resettlement, anti-partisan warfare, and rogue excesses and laying out, with his evidence for this, the fate of the Jews of Vilna, Lodz, Warsaw, Kiev, and Riga. But still, Himmler doesn't seem to allow much scope on earth for Jews to live and thrive, does he? Where, in Himmler's viewpoint, as expressed at Posen and to the good men of the SS Handschar, does Himmler imagine the Jews of Europe and the world are to end up?
 
Get serious and stop posting recycled trash.

Here is some of the "context" of the Posen speech:
Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 [1934] to carry out our duty, as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them. . . . I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people. . . . It is one of those things that is easily said. "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, ha!, a small matter." . . . Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when there are 500, or when there are 1000. And to have seen this through, and -- with the exception of human weaknesses -- to have remained decent, has made us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned.
You'd do better to take the approach of the RODOH regulars from 2, 3 years ago, when they realized the problem with the Posen speech and decided it was a fake - going so far as to try to raise money to get a speech expert to analyze Himmler's voice on the recording. Here is where Team Denial really misses LGR, who could always be counted to throw in the Moscow Forgery Factories . . . or doctor a statement of a historian . . . or make up an address to suit his purposes . . . or lie about dates . . .
 
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I'd be more interested in hearing your answers to the questions posed to you about the Jäger report.
Unsurprisingly, so would I.

As Nick Terry pointed out, Dogzilla is always backing away from the implications of our discussions here and even the points he himself makes - covering up by rehashing, changing subjects, dodging, and engaging in hand-waving.

This discussion - what the Jaeger Report describes - is not trivial because, beyond the matter of putting one's money where one's mouth is, deniers have minimized and even ridiculed (“the frog priest” anyone?) the mass shootings in the east by waving around, without foundation and as a distraction, the triple obfuscations that the murders, if they occurred at all, were "really" anti-partisan warfare, ethnic cleansing operations, or excesses typical of all war.

Dogzilla chimed in, repeating these well-worn claims and will do so again, along with other deniers, when it is convenient. So let him support what he says lest any denier on this thread try pulling this crap in the future.
 
Ausrottung would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots.
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And what does extirpation mean? What happens to a plant which is torn up by the roots?

And why is that no native speaker of German suggests that it means "evacuation"?

Seriously, you *don't* want to play the the Ausrottung card. It would make you look as stupid as a no-planer.

Oh, wait....
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Is this one of those less than clever attempts to explain to a native speaker of German that "ausrotten" means anything other than to exterminate? How about http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/ausrotten for example? Just so you know, the Duden is the equivalent to OED or Merriam-Webster when it comes to definitions of a word.
This kind of semantic fiddling is exactly the kind of stuttering dissembling you accuse historians of.
 
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And what does extirpation mean? What happens to a plant which is torn up by the roots?

And why is that no native speaker of German suggests that it means "evacuation"?

Seriously, you *don't* want to play the the Ausrottung card. It would make you look as stupid as a no-planer.

Oh, wait....
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The closest thing they could come up with and that is huge stretch is that it means tearing out weeds. Which similarly to those missing Jews they try to make you forget do not tend to be resettled somewhere else but guess what...
 
Explain why... or be damned...

DB

AIUI - Holocaust deniers have two motivations. Firstly to show that jooz = bad and secondly to show that nazi = good.

It depends on the denier though. They might just be nazis who realise that the holocaust makes nazis look bad. Cant have that so invent some conspiracy by the jooz to explain how the whole thing never happened. Jooz bad ergo nazis good.

Alternatively the denier might just hate jooz. In which case they wish to show how them evil red sea pedestrians did an awful hatchet job on that lovely hitler fella just so they could get their own homeland by the sea. Again Jooz bad ergo nazis good.

Simples. Xxx.
 
AIUI - Holocaust deniers have two motivations. Firstly to show that jooz = bad and secondly to show that nazi = good.

It depends on the denier though. They might just be nazis who realise that the holocaust makes nazis look bad. Cant have that so invent some conspiracy by the jooz to explain how the whole thing never happened. Jooz bad ergo nazis good.

Alternatively the denier might just hate jooz. In which case they wish to show how them evil red sea pedestrians did an awful hatchet job on that lovely hitler fella just so they could get their own homeland by the sea. Again Jooz bad ergo nazis good.

Simples. Xxx.


The Deniers premise is 'there was no holocaust and the evil, rotten Jews deserved it anyway".
 
Excellent post, Nick. To underscore for readers of this thread, Dogzilla's persistence in the same fallacies, here is what he had to say about the Jaeger Report, which in this case summarizes the extermination of 130,000+ Lithuanian Jews out of a population of 200,000+, and which notes that, for labor purposes ~35,000 Jews were "exempted" from immediate execution and kept temporarily alive, at least through winter and probably longer: To answer Dogzilla's supposedly rhetorical question one can start by reflecting that the report is about the extermination of 130,000+ Jews, a point which Dogzilla conveniently ignores and certainly fails to explain. And then one can absorb what was said in the Wannsee protocol, for example, where it was stated that And Jaeger's text shows the sort of practical experience which the conferees at Wannsee drew upon, where Jaeger speculated that labor needs would persist past winter, so the "Work Jews" were to be kept alive past winter.

I concur. It was an excellent post. For the slower members of our studio audience it was a nice summary of the political realities which hampered the German policy of deporting the Jews. For me it was a litany of the obvious but it was still refreshing to find acknowledgement of the fact that Nazi Germany was a modern industrial state populated by an educated cultural people surrounded by other modern industrial states also populated by a more or less similarly educated cultural people. The myth of an ultra-efficient totalitarian Führerstaat that was able to impose its will upon its subjugated people often colors our discourse. Nick's post was a reminder that managing the millions of different people of Europe, each with their own agendas and concerns, is often similar to herding cats. Implementing the Nazi policy toward the Jews--actually implementing any Nazi policy--was a constant struggle which required accommodation and adaptation to ever evolving circumstances. It wasn't a black and white world that required nothing more than simply holding a gun to everybody's head.

Still, a discussion of the political realities of implementing the Final Solution to the Jewish Question doesn't address the crux of our discussion. It was merely an expansion of earlier exhortations to read the minutes of the Wannsee conference or the Nuremberg Laws to understand how the Rosenstrasse incident fit into the historical context. Rosenstrasse doesn't need explaining in the context of Wannsee or Nuremberg or all the other evidence of deportation. As Nick pointed out, it's not an anomaly when you are implementing a not universally agreed upon policy such as deporting the Jews.

It's only an anomaly when the Final Solution to the Jewish Question is miscast as a plan to exterminate all the Jews. That is where Nick failed. Discussing the difficulties the Nazis faced when deporting the Jews doesn't explain why Rosenstrasse is not an anomaly. It's more of a thinly veiled admission that you don't have evidence of extermination. It's a manifestation of the Hoefle Syndrome--substitute evidence for deportation for evidence of extermination and hope the stupid people don't notice.


So, here too, Dogzilla tries to use temporary exemptions, for specific reasons, for a minority of Jews from the murder program, as evidence that the greater number were not being intentionally killed in an extermination plan. This line of argument is really beyond "silly." And by repeating something so inane, Dogzilla assumes a gullible or naive audience, which is why he can't get away with his distortions here.

Your point about Stoltzfus is exactly right: Stoltzfus's book was published in 1996, and Gruner's came out just a year later, immediately superseding Stoltzfus: and Clayton will not be able to figure out why historians prefer the later study by citing memorial blurbs and posting photos of monuments and the like. Sadly, he would have to read the two books and compare them. That historians disagree is as little a surprise as it is that even dictatorships practice politics and compromise.

It does appear that Dogzilla was motivated by this discussion to at least consult Wikipedia. Baby steps.

The wiki article is hardly complete but it does hint at the disagreement among "historians" about what actually happened and what it means. There's no surprise that interpreting the incident is a problem. It's more surprising that there is actually a memorial that reminds people of it. Anomalies like the orchestras at the concentration camps can be hand waved away with an "entertaining the SS" or "drowning out the screams of the victims" explanation. But Rosenstrasse can only be explained in the context of deportation. Explaining it while simultaneously asserting an extermination policy is a tough one. Maybe not as tough as explaining something like Gudrun Himmler's bat mitzvah. But it's tough.
 
The myth of an ultra-efficient totalitarian Führerstaat that was able to impose its will upon its subjugated people often colors our discourse.
Yes, this is a strawman deniers like to use to try to put their points across. We trust you'll be correcting Clayton Moore, for example, when he tries using it next time. Good to hear you all will stop pretending that this caricature has anything to do with the points the rest of us are making.

Still, a discussion of the political realities of implementing the Final Solution to the Jewish Question doesn't address the crux of our discussion. . . . It's only an anomaly when the Final Solution to the Jewish Question is miscast as a plan to exterminate all the Jews. That is where Nick failed. . . . It's more of a thinly veiled admission that you don't have evidence of extermination.
So, of course, Nick and others of us have been posting elements of the evidence you claim we don't have . . . and you have been handwaving every bit of it away, changing the subject, strawmanning it, or just plain ignoring the evidence and explanations in favor of continuing on with your wishful thinking, dissembling, and empty claims. Nick, of course, has recently co-authored a 500+ page critique confronting three "leading" deniers - Mattogno, Graf and Kues - with the sources they misuse and skip over and showing why and how deportation of Jews by 1942 was mostly, but not always, for the purpose of extermination. What have you done except strawman and dodge?

So still you continue your shameless performance - running away from the dishonest claims you make without so much as a nod to any evidence to support them. Where did the Jews of Vilna, Lodz, Warsaw, Kiev, and Riga end up? How is the Jaeger Report evidence for the implementation of a policy of resettlement in Lithuania - or for antipartisan operations in Lithuania - or for lower-echelon, unapproved excesses? When are you going to account for the murders, in just 5-6 months, of 80% of Lithuanian Jews by the Germans - or provide even a hint of what you think alternatively happened to over 130,000 Jews from across Lithuania?

Nick's post was indeed excellent; your reply is more muddle and evasion, exactly what we've come to expect from you.
 
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It wasn't a black and white world that required nothing more than simply holding a gun to everybody's head.

Sure, the authorities in occupied countries differed in their "understanding of the Jewish problem" varied. There were a few nations that effectively resisted, such a Denmark. (And even there, it was only Swedens' acceptance of the Jews that saved them in the end.) But in countries where the authorities cooperated almost completely--as they did in Poland, where a large number of Jews just happened to reside--the Nazis were, effectively, holding a gun to the deported Jews' heads.
 
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As Nick pointed out, it's not an anomaly when you are implementing a not universally agreed upon policy such as deporting the Jews.

It's only an anomaly when the Final Solution to the Jewish Question is miscast as a plan to exterminate all the Jews. That is where Nick failed.

Except I didn't fail. You, however, have failed basic logic. Your first quoted sentence is the correct answer. Your second quoted sentence reverts back to the lunatic argument that the character of the Final Solution can be determined by the treatment of people who weren't mean to be subjected to the Final Solution at that particular moment in time.

I even stated in the post which you decided was 'excellent' that the sole issue at stake is what the term Final Solution meant.

It's really not that hard to understand. Lots of Jews from Berlin were deported during the 'factory action' to Auschwitz - thousands of them, multiple transports. On arrival at Auschwitz, they were selected. The majority were sent to the gas chambers, a proportion were registered to work as slave labourers. The Rosenstrasse protest doesn't change anything about this core fact.

This basic policy constituted the Final Solution as it was experienced by deportees from western and central Europe. Nigh on the entire world knows that Jews were selected at Auschwitz. That is how the Final Solution is understood. It is comprehended as a step by step process whereby the Nazis had prioritised the deaths of 'useless mouths' and delayed the deaths of Jews who could be useful to them or who belonged to privileged categories. Nobody sane bats an eyelid at this because it conforms to actua Nazi actions and their stated policies.

That's how the Final Solution was spelled out on many occasions in the sources. In the Wannsee conference protocol, there is no discussion of the fate of the unfit, none whatsoever; only the able-bodied Jews were meant to go 'roadbuilding to the east'. There is utter silence on the fate of the unfit, which is suspicious enough given that the 'able bodied' were supposed to be finished off if they survived slave labour.

But there are other sources spelling out explicitly the calculus: unfit to be killed, fit to be spared for work. INCLUDING from Auschwitz, during the 'factory action'. There are rare surviving documents stating that x number were registered and y were 'gesondert untergebracht', specially accomodated, a nonsense cover story. And one document even says x were registered and y were 'sonderbehandelt', specially treated, a fixed euphemism in LTI by early 1943 which can mean nothing other than their death. A death which took place at a camp where crematoria were being completed which would be able to carry out 'simultaneous cremation and special treatment' in a 'gassing cellar', fitted with gastight doors equipped with all manner of accoutrements that mean sane people know there were gas chambers at Birkenau.

All this confirmed a thousand times over from other sources - from survivor witnesses, SS witnesses, underground reports and much else. Not to mention confirmed by the words of Heinrich Himmler, as LemmyCaution has been pointing out.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between idea and act. The Nazis demonstrably wanted to carry out a genocide of European Jews. They said as much repeatedly. That's the kill 'em all bit. There are numerous sources confirming that this would be the medium to long term result. The discussion of sterilisation of Mischlinge in the Wannse protocol is completely unintelligible if one does not recognise that the wiping out of the Jewish people biologically was the intended Nazi goal.

The Final Solution wasn't carried out on the basis of 100% extermination. It was carried out on the basis of selection, of the accelerated extermination of the unfit and the slower death of the able bodied, who would in the end be finished off, as spelled out in Wannsee.

During and after the major deportations, plenty of Nazis, Himmler included, referred to 'the extermination of the Jews' using Vernichtung, Ausrottung and even more explicit terms like 'kill'. Notice the sentence construction and when the phrases are being used. Jews must be exterminated is a future tense goal. Extermination of the Jews means that Jews were being killed en masse and is used retrospectively, eg in the Posen and Sonthofen speeches.

The Nazis, including Himmler, knew perfectly well that they were keeping a minority of Jews alive; what they were celebrating and acknowledging by saying 'extermination of the Jews' is the simple fact that they had killed millions of them. Himmler even addressed the issue of sparing some for labour in several of his speeches. He also reiterated the goal of wiping all Jews out everywhere - eventually.

By the end of 1943, the overwhelming majority of Jews in Nazi hands were dead. There were less than 50,000 kept alive in the occupied Soviet territories, all locked up in concentration camps. Several million more had died. The disproportion speaks for itself. In the Government-General and Bialystok, there were fewer than 80,000 Jews left alive legally whereas before there had been 2.2 million in those territories. The drop speaks for itself, but is also confirmed by God knows how many other sources. Killing nearly 2 million Jews and leaving less than 80,000 alive is prima facie, extermination. That's how contemporaries saw it - both in the outside world, among the occupied peoples and how the Nazis saw it. Your redefinition of extermination to apply only and exclusively to total death is a strawman.

The Nazis told themselves that they had dealt 'world Jewry' a punishing blow by wiping out virtually the entire Jewish population of Eastern Europe. Those communities were seen as the breeding-grounds for 'world Jewry' since historically they had the highest fertility, such that massive emigration did not diminish the number of East European Jews. Suspending Aktion Reinhard in the autumn of 1943 reflected the fact that the job was essentially done. A handful of work-ghettos and labour camps remained; Jews too badly needed as labourers for even the most committed ideologues to persuade the more pragmatically-minded Nazis to let them be killed.

And then the war situation changed again. In 1944, Hitler reversed Nazi policy and allowed Jews to be brought back to the Reich due to the labour shortage. Most were Hungarian Jews - but the Nazis still bumped off 75% of the Hungarian deportees. The other survivors were brought back, too, and decimated in 1944-45 across Germany and Austria in the now bloated concentration camp system. The Final Solution proper was suspended in October 1944 with the dismantling of the gas chambers at Auschwitz. That didn't stop the killing of Jews in less systematic ways through to May 1945, but it meant that the survivors now had some chance to make it through to the end of the war alive.

That was because the Nazis were losing. They had decided on the Final Solution when they thought they were winning. The moment 'after the war' when the survivors would have been killed wasn't going to come any more. It was politically incorrect to say so, and some diehards never got the message. But Eichmann knew by the end of 1944 that it was all over; Himmler knew at the latest by early 1945, and started negotiating using Jewish hostages as collateral. The Final Solution was over by then; the Holocaust didn't end until May 1945.

The end result, as I've pointed out to you before, was that the Nazis singlehandedly killed 5 million Jews (more were killed by Romanians and are supplementary to that figure) and left significantly fewer than 300,000 alive to be liberated from labour and concentration camps.

That means that for every 16 Jews subjected to the Final Solution who died, one lived to see the end of the war. That was the Final Solution. If you are seriously arguing that a 16:1 ratio doesn't constitute extermination, you need your *********** head examined.
 
That's it. Proof positive out of a gazillion words and a gazillion documents.
[/quote]
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... not a one of which documents the Jews as ever having been "evacuated" anywhere after the death camps...

You never answered, CM: What does extirpate mean? What happens to a plant after it is torn up by the roots? And why is it that no native speaker of German has ever even tried to suggest that "ausrottung" involves "evacuation?"
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The Final Solution wasn't carried out on the basis of 100% extermination.
Dogzilla needs to consider who was subject to the Final Solution was not black and white - and set once and for all - as Nick, and I have been trying to remind you, referencing Hilberg.

E.g., prior to September 1943, in France, because of political complexities, including French "sensitivities" and the existence of the Italian occupation zone, which extended northward from Nice, the deportations focused on foreign-born Jews. Does a snapshot in August 1943 - up to which time the Final Solution in France affected mainly the foreign born - mean that native-born French Jews would not be sent east to their deaths?

No. All one has to do is look forward a few months. After September 1943, all French Jews became subject to deportation - to death camps. Even then, it was not until spring 1944 that Brunner was having numbers of native-born French Jews arrested and sent to the east.

Similarly with Reich Jews in mixed marriages, political issues, as Nick described in his excellent post, led to circumspection and a greater care than with Jews in the east, for example, so that during the year of our snapshot, 1943, the privileged Jews were not subject to the Final Solution. This should be very easy to understand, that because of time, everything doesn't happen at once.

The political aspect, with a temporal dimension, is a bit different to another problem, that of definition, the decision as to who (in various Axis countries) was to be considered a Jew and thus subject to deportation and death - or to other measures (sterilization, "sifting" procedures, etc.), as Dogzilla no doubt knows from Hilberg and other accounts of the Nuremberg Laws and their impact on various differently defined groups.
 
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