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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Robrob said:
Feel free to explain why such a chamber would have to be hermetically sealed?
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Interesting. So Saggy must now deny the existence of mustard gas.

After all, it was employed in open battlefields, which while not in hermetically sealed chambers, were most certainly fatal.
 
Nick Terry said:
Really? Where is this stated? Especially the part about 'milling around while waiting to be gassed'?
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Well, where did they wait? Did they sit on benches? Where did they eat, drink or use the facilities?

It's that old common sense thing Terry.
 
It's more that old common sense thing Clayton Moore that you should do some reading upon Reinhard before you shoot your mouth off in a vague manner. Or is that too verbose for you?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Well, where did they wait? Did they sit on benches? Where did they eat, drink or use the facilities?

It's that old common sense thing Terry.
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Common sense would dictate that someone seeking to find the answer to a question might actually bother to read something.

The incoming deportation trains generally consisted of 50-60 cattle wagons containing six to seven thousand people in total. After passing through Malkinia-Gora junction the trains crossed the Bug River, and came to a halt at the Treblinka village station. The station-master, named Franciszek Zabecki, was a member of the Polish underground, and a key observer of the events of 1942 and 1943.

Each transport was divided into sections of twenty wagons, and was pushed by a locomotive, driven by Emmerich and Klinzmann, officials of the Reichsbahn / Ostbahn, onto the siding leading to the camp. The remaining wagons waited at the station. As each section of the transport was about to enter the camp, SS and Ukrainian men took up position on the camp’s railway platform and in the reception area. When the wagons stopped the doors were opened one at a time by the Blue Kommando and the SS men and Ukrainians ordered the Jews to leave the wagons.
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http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka.html
 
Clayton Moore said:
As usual the work aspect is ignored by Terry. 10,000 a day.

7, 8 9, thousand Jewish children, women and men milling around while waiting to be gassed. That's what the Holocaustics are saying happened.
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Yeah, that's what happened, although your numbers may be high. Let's for a moment assume that they're correct, OK?

First of all, we know that none of them had any weapons. That was one thing about which the Nazis made sure.

Second, we know that in many gassing operations, there were attempts to keep the Jews ignorant until the very last moment. Therefore, they were waiting to be gassed but didn't know that they would be gassed. The Jews who had already been taken away were, presumably, being deloused. After all, this is what your side says happened at Treblinka.

Third, look at this map of Treblinka:

http://deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap9.jpg

See the area on the lower right where it's labeled "Reception Camp"? That's where people waited. We know the death camp was 10,000 square meters in size (the upper right of the map), and the Reception camp is bigger, right?

But we'll stick with 10,000 square meters. Now a point of comparison: Union Square in San Francisco is 9,500 square meters (from Wikipedia). So we'll go with that, which continues to serve your point and not mine.

Well, 8,000 people demonstrated there in late 2002 to protest the impending Iraq War. Pretty damned close to your estimate, no? And that's with more than a square meter per person, which is a lot of room.

And, as demonstrated by none other than me in this very thread, as many as NINE people per square meter ride the subway during rush hour in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Ergo, as many as 90,000 people could be squeezed into that space, if it were necessary. You're suggesting a grand total that is only one-ninth that amount, and not even at the same time.

You want to maintain that unarmed people in a space that size surrounded by armed SS would constitute some kind of problem? If that's the case, then what country in its right mind would allow public demonstrations of any kind, ever?

Please tell me where above you think my argument falls apart. Thanks.
 
Wroclaw said:
Yeah, that's what happened, although your numbers may be high. Let's for a moment assume that they're correct, OK?

First of all, we know that none of them had any weapons. That was one thing about which the Nazis made sure.

Second, we know that in many gassing operations, there were attempts to keep the Jews ignorant until the very last moment. Therefore, they were waiting to be gassed but didn't know that they would be gassed. The Jews who had already been taken away were, presumably, being deloused. After all, this is what your side says happened at Treblinka.

Third, look at this map of Treblinka:

http://deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap9.jpg

See the area on the lower right where it's labeled "Reception Camp"? That's where people waited. We know the death camp was 10,000 square meters in size (the upper right of the map), and the Reception camp is bigger, right?

But we'll stick with 10,000 square meters. Now a point of comparison: Union Square in San Francisco is 9,500 square meters (from Wikipedia). So we'll go with that, which continues to serve your point and not mine.

Well, 8,000 people demonstrated there in late 2002 to protest the impending Iraq War. Pretty damned close to your estimate, no? And that's with more than a square meter per person, which is a lot of room.

And, as demonstrated by none other than me in this very thread, as many as NINE people per square meter ride the subway during rush hour in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Ergo, as many as 90,000 people could be squeezed into that space, if it were necessary. You're suggesting a grand total that is only one-ninth that amount, and not even at the same time.

You want to maintain that unarmed people in a space that size surrounded by armed SS would constitute some kind of problem? If that's the case, then what country in its right mind would allow public demonstrations of any kind, ever?

Please tell me where above you think my argument falls apart. Thanks.
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Not even necessary to point out the amount of space in the camp. Nowhere near 7-9,000 people were ever let off the trains at one time.
 
Which is the point of this line: "You're suggesting a grand total that is only one-ninth that amount, and not even at the same time."
 
abaddon said:
Interesting. So Saggy must now deny the existence of mustard gas.

After all, it was employed in open battlefields, which while not in hermetically sealed chambers, were most certainly fatal.
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Wake up. Zyklon gas was used world wide to disinfect the freight trains and clothes.

How do you think people worked with it? Handled it?

It was used in the camps to disinfect. Period.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B


From 1929 onwards the U.S. used Zyklon B to disinfect the freight trains and clothes of Mexican immigrants entering the US.[13] Farm Securities Administration photographer Marion Post Wolcott recorded the use of cyanide gas and Zyklon B by the Public Health Service at the New Orleans Quarantine Station during the 1930s.[14]

In early 1942, Zyklon B had emerged as the preferred extermination tool of the Nazi regime for both the Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek extermination camps during the Holocaust. The chemical claimed the lives of roughly 1.2 million people in these camps. Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, said that the use of Zyklon-B came about on the initiative of one of his subordinates, Captain Frisch, who used the substance to murder some Russian POWs in late August 1941. The experiment was repeated on more Russian POWs, with Hoess watching, in September of the same year.[15] The emergence of Zyklon-B as the preferred chemical was a multi-stranded process.[16]
[edit] Production
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In January or February 1940, 250 Gypsy children from Brno in the Buchenwald concentration camp were used as guinea pigs for testing the Zyklon B gas.[26] On September 3, 1941, around 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 sick Polish prisoners were gassed with Zyklon B at Auschwitz camp I; this was the first experiment with the gas at Auschwitz. The experiments lasted more than 20 hours.

According to Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, bunker 1 held 800 people, and bunker 2 held 1,200.[27] Once the chamber was full, the doors were screwed shut and solid pellets of Zyklon B were dropped into the chambers through vents in the side walls, releasing the cyanide gas. Those inside died within 20 minutes; the speed of death depended on how close the inmate was standing to a gas vent, according to Höss, who estimated that about one third of the victims died immediately.[28][29] Johann Kremer, an SS doctor who oversaw the gassings, testified that: "Shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through the opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives."[30] When they were removed, if the chamber had been very congested, as they often were, the victims were found half-squatting, their skin colored pink with red and green spots, some foaming at the mouth or bleeding from the ears.[29]
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Clayton Moore said:
Wake up. Zyklon gas was used world wide to disinfect the freight trains and clothes.

How do you think people worked with it? Handled it?

It was used in the camps to disinfect. Period.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B
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And from the very first paragraph of your link:

Zyklon B (German pronunciation: [tsykloːn ˈbeː]; also spelled Cyclon B or Cyclone B) was the trade name of a cyanide-based pesticide infamous for its use by Nazi Germany to kill human beings in gas chambers of extermination camps during the Holocaust.
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Does the word "concentration" mean anything to you?

And further down the Wiki article:
Zyklon B was used by Nazi Germany to poison prisoners in the gas chambers of their network of extermination camps throughout Europe. Zyklon B was used at Auschwitz Birkenau, Majdanek and at Sachsenhausen. Most of the victims were Jews and the Zyklon B gas became a central symbol of the Holocaust. (Zyklon B was also briefly tried out at Bełżec, one of the Operation Reinhard camps, but soon dropped in favour of carbon monoxide from engine exhaust as the gassing agent of choice.)
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Why do you quote or link articles which deny your position?
 
Nick Terry said:
For as long as they were on the trains, yes.
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I'll add here for Clayton's edification, because he apparently refused to watch Franz Suchomel on this point, they also urinated and defecated in "the tube," according to Suchomel. He is disgustingly clear on this point in Shoah.
 
abaddon said:
And from the very first paragraph of your link:



Does the word "concentration" mean anything to you?

And further down the Wiki article:


Why do you quote or link articles which deny your position?
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To show the ridiculousness of the Holohoax.
 
Wroclaw said:
Please suggest a single scenario in the history that would be too dangerous for the people operating the gas chambers to actually undertake.
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Wake up. Zyklon gas was used world wide to disinfect the freight trains and clothes.

How do you think people worked with it? Handled it?

It was used in the camps to disinfect. Period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B
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Try and keep up. It was safe enough to handled and be in contact with by workers world wide on a daily basis. Saying 1800 people could be killed with it in 20 minutes is on par with an American POW being used for propaganda saying Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or Stan Musial sucks.
 
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