Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Using the name Nathan I have for the last four years been a denizen of the CODOH forum. Like many a better men I am suddenly non grata there; my latest post was deleted and my password isn’t good any more. Must have been something I said. I have used Codoh to unload findings which are surplus to writings I hope to publish under my own name. Codoh has in my opinion a very attractive visual format, so I am sorry to have been expelled from that paradise. (I have also been banned from David Irving’s website, which I regard as the best, or at any rate the least infantile, of the Holocaust-related forums.) Codoh’s method of dividing topics might have been a helpful tool for organising knowledge - if only its members could stick to the topic. But they never could, and never will.

Here there seems to be no topic to stick to. The normal discourtesies are exchanged; then one casual opinion leads to another. The casual opinion du jour is the motivation of revisionists. I regard speculation about motives as a complete waste of time. Having said that, I intend to completely waste an hour writing about it. But before I do that i want to see if i can underline, boldface and highlight quotations. Eg.

“It is astonishing what absurd things one can temporarily believe if one thinks too long alone.” J-M Keynes

It escapes me how to do t this

Welcome to the forum, and sorry to hear that you have been purged in whatever fit of pique from Hannover it was this time. There's a test forum where you can experiment with the settings, the wysiwyg posting window is pretty self-explanatory, the quote button

works fine

once you know where it is on the dashboard.
 
http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconshr123.html#shrlk1


"In reviewing these gassing claims we find that virtually all of them came from anonymous sources in Poland, and that all of them were publicized and propagated by Jewish agencies in Switzerland, London, and America. The conclusion that many revisionists have drawn is that these gassing claims were therefore developed by Jewish groups as part of a hoax. We would dissent from this interpretation: it is too great a leap to suggest that these Jewish agencies, in publicizing these claims, knew them to be false, or were publicizing them to some nefarious purpose. On the contrary, all of the internal evidence -- letters, diaries, stray conversations -- indicate that the Western Jews most responsible for the spread of these claims actually believed them. Whether these stories were then used to pursue political ends, and specifically Zionist ends, does not by itself discount the apparent sincerity of what these Jewish leaders were writing and saying at the time. To put the matter simply, they were in no position to know what was really going on: all they knew, or thought they knew, was that their co-religionists were undergoing a terrific ordeal of persecution, and needed help."
 
Tell you what, Gene: for every one "anonymous" source you come up with, I will either show that it is not, or offer four non-anonymous sources. Since your mindless parroting of what someone (themselves anonymous) else wrote depends on this point, if I do (or if you fail / refuse to) then you have once again shown the intellectual bankruptcy at the heart of your denial.
 
Tell you what, Gene: for every one "anonymous" source you come up with, I will either show that it is not, or offer four non-anonymous sources. Since your mindless parroting of what someone (themselves anonymous) else wrote depends on this point, if I do (or if you fail / refuse to) then you have once again shown the intellectual bankruptcy at the heart of your denial.

The essay I cited is not from an anonymous source.

http://www.saloforum.com/index.php?...-holmes-an-interview-with-samuel-crowell.793/

THE HOOVER HOG: I guess I’ll start by asking about your background. Maybe the short version?

SAMUEL CROWELL: Well, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, attended public schools, went into the service, got out and went to my hometown school, Berkeley, on the GI Bill. Then I got fellowship to go east, and I went to Columbia for several years. I studied mostly history and languages as an undergraduate, with concentrations in Russian history and African American history and wrote my senior thesis on German-Jewish history with an emphasis on philosophy. At Columbia, I studied Russian and East European history and the history of ideas and got two masters degrees. Then I started raising a family. I did not finish my dissertation that focused on themes in late 19th Century Russian history of philosophy.

I'm citing information that is relavent to the topic of this discussion. What you refer to as mindless parroting is exactly the same thing you are doing whether or not you are aware of it. You cite the writings, statistics and findings of others that you choose who back your opinion, and act as if it is infallible historical fact. In the real world that's not how it works.

There are some here on this forum who suggest that the whole mass extermination theory regarding the Germans treatment of the Jews was a carefully planned hoax perpetrated by degenerate Jewish liars. Then there is your ilk who try to characterize anyone who challenges the accepted historical narrative as holocaust deniers, Hitler Huggers and Nazis. I'm simply attempting to look at both sides of the issue and try to come to a greater understanding of this hotly contested series of issues. I find the essay I cited an extremely measured and intelligent insight into the gas chamber issue.

Thanks

http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconshr123.html#shrlk1

"The revisionist approach has its own strengths and weaknesses. Its greatest strength has been its willingness to subject the standard evidentiary texts to rigorous criticism. But even here, there has been a tendency to confuse debunking with historical explanation. It is not enough to say that this or that affidavit contains several errors and is therefore suspect, nor, for that matter, is it enough to carry out forensic studies and show the extreme unlikelihood of specific gassing claims.

There have been enormous contributions in this latter area in the past decade, and the researches of Faurisson, Berg, Rudolf and Mattogno have gone a long way to define the physical limits against which testimonies and affidavits must be tested.10 Nevertheless, to show with a fair degree of probability that the mass gassings were impossible is not the same thing as explaining why everyone believes they took place.

Therefore we begin at the beginning with the simple proposition that the gassing claims are either true or not true. If they are true, then the historian should be able to establish how the claims came to be known, and at what point the fugitive claims of wartime crossed the threshold of fact. On the other hand, if the claims are false it should be possible to explain how they emerged, how they were constituted, and why they were believed. In short, the problem requires a chronological method.

In general the tendency in most writings on the Holocaust has been to ignore the difference between rumor and fact: the traditional school considers all rumors fact, the revisionists consider all facts rumor.11 It is precisely at this juncture, then, that we seem to have a promising point of departure, since all parties, traditional or revisionist, agree that the gassing claims began as vague, anonymous, and unverifiable reports, that is, as rumors.

Fact is a reflection of empirical reality; but rumor expresses a reality all its own, however difficult it is to define, since the real world of rumor is simply that world of unspoken assumptions, associations, and projections that characterize a human culture at a specific moment of historic time. Attempts to describe the parameters and nature of that unspoken world, which in some ways is more real than the real world, at least in terms of determining our perception and our judgment, has been a main project among intellectual historians and literary critics at least since the early 1960's.

By way of a simple example: in 1976 a literary detective named Samuel Rosenberg wrote a book entitled Naked is the Best Disguise: The Death and Resurrection of Sherlock Holmes. Rosenberg closely analyzed the Holmes stories in order to argue that Conan Doyle was expressing in his work a great number of late Victorian concerns: Evolution, Nietzsche's theories, German secret societies and bellicose nationalism, the White Man's Burden, and so forth. While we can debate his success is mapping out Conan Doyle's specific intellectual concerns, his book did succeed in placing the stories firmly within a specific cultural context, thus helping to explain their content."
 
The core essay which Samuel Crowell wrote appeared in 1997. How many books and articles need have appeared since 1997 that Crowell does not acknowledge before you will concede that his 1997 essay might be, um, a bit out of date?

So are the books that you and your cohorts cite by Raul Hillberg etc...In historical terms, 1997 isn't exactly ancient. Um, what's your point? The post I responded to intimated that the material I cited was written by an anonymous source.
 
And yet, you don't actually cite that source. You cite someone else, citing someone else, who finally cites the Crowell which cites, well, not a lot at all. Why didn't you just cite Crowell saying the things you attribute to him at third hand, then the *actual* sources can be evaluated?

No one here has characterized any one as anything simply "challenging" the normative history as any such thing -- you're lying again. Saggs, CM, yourself -- all have been shown to rely completely on liars and frauds (and yes, if you care to dispute this I will demonstrate it for you, again), and an ideologically driven need to deny history.

You are demonstrably *not* "looking at both sides". When challenged to support your crap, when shown that it is wrong, you choose to run away.

Now, are you prepared to change this by citing these "anonymous" sources referred to by your source, citing another source, supposedly citing Crowell thereby showing that someone in your chain of 'citation' was lying? I'm prepared to do so for any source cited by anyone that I have used -- you will refuse to do the same.

Thereby once again demonstrating your intellectual bankruptcy.
 
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No, what is ridiculous is your characterization of "I don't know, not having looked into it" as a 'pat' answer.

What is sad in a completely expected way is, having been invited to support your crap about 137 cases of crushed testicles, you choose to run away.

As usual.
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Furthermore, as is boasted by several Zionist spokesmen:

"The shattering effect of the holocaust on the Christian conscience results in a feeling of collective indebtedness to the Jews." [2]

This guilt trip has resulted in over 65 billion dollars being siphoned out of Americans' pockets as aid to the world Zionist movement. This is without considering the creation of that unbridled, charlatan, bellicose regime known as the bastardized bandit state of "Israel", which has not only uprooted a once thriving Palestinian civilization and culture, but constantly seeks to instigate horror and bedlam in most parts of the world - the events of September 11 being a perfect example, as some have claimed. The Palestinians had lived on their land for centuries before the Jewish gangsters came to town. Can a price tag even be placed on the lives and property that have been stolen from them?

Whenever the authenticity of their non-existent "Holocaust" is questioned, holohoaxers invariably raise the issue of witness testimony, as well as the fact that few of the National Socialists on trial in the Jewish kangaroo courts challenged whether or not the "crimes" that the Jews accused them of had actually been committed. In particular, these holohoaxers love to cite the "confessions" of a very select few alleged perpetrators from the SS, as the undisputed and absolute truth of the phony Jew holocaust.

Confessions

Let us look at what appears at first glance to be the most compelling evidence - the purported confessions of the alleged perpetrators. Of the one-sided hearings conducted by the Americans, the Dachau show trials best demonstrate the mockery of the confessions that were "obtained" from the accused. We will begin with the shameful fact that there were 137 cases of demolished testicles [3] as part of the 3rd degree treatment that these German prisoners had received at the hands of their "honorable and benevolent" American custodians.

Is there any man that can seriously contend that he absolutely would not admit to something that he did not do, if it would stop a maniacal Jew or Jewish bedfellow from crushing his testicles?

The disgraceful conduct of the Jewish/American agents did not end with genital torture. Their reprehensible behavior was also manifest with the clearly visible marks on the defendants when they arrived in the Jew kangaroo court for the main Dachau hearing. [4] The causes of the ostensible injuries included: destruction of the bed of the finger nails, knocked out teeth, broken jaws, and various other wounds from beatings with clubs, [5] and things better not mentioned in front of ladies.

3) Arthur R. Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, IHR, New Port Beach, California, 1976, 1992, p.22.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Oth...ies&Liars/FabricationOfTheNurembergTrials.htm

A bunch of coerced confessions to agree with the testimonies of a few LIARS made 65 billion dollars and counting.


"The shattering effect of the holocaust on the Christian conscience results in a feeling of collective indebtedness to the Jews."

The above is a get out of anything and profit from it to boot card.
 
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3) Arthur R. Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, IHR, New Port Beach, California, 1976, 1992, p.22.
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And what sources does Butz cite to support this?

What's that?

None at all?

Still don't have a handle on this whole primary source thing, do you?
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And what sources does Bryant cite to support this?

What's that?

None at all?

*Really* don't have that handle...
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"The shattering effect of the holocaust on the Christian conscience results in a feeling of collective indebtedness to the Jews."

The above is a get out of anything and profit from it to boot card.
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Nope. Doesn't get you out of citing a *single* Zionist spokesman stating this, let alone several.

Look up what quotation marks are supposed to mean while you are looking for those sources for 137 cases of testicle torture. Heck, I'll make it even easier for you: 13 cases with names and medical examinations showing that this happened.

I know you're math impaired, so let me give you a hint: That's less than 10% of your original claim.

What's that? There never were any such medical examinations? How did they determine that they were crushed?

Oh, yeah, that's right: it never happened so there never *were* any such.
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So are the books that you and your cohorts cite by Raul Hillberg etc...In historical terms, 1997 isn't exactly ancient. Um, what's your point? The post I responded to intimated that the material I cited was written by an anonymous source.
The works I have been citing in this thread are mostly from the last 5-8 years. Hilberg, for example, revised his three-volume work in 2003--and actually revised it, as in reworked it, updated it, reassessed earlier conclusions, instead of, Butz-like, reissuing a work that was badly out of date with only a new preface.

Of course, as Nick explained, we will sometimes look at an older book in the context of the historiography--and we do find that, under close scrutiny, some older books stand up quite well. An example is Trunk's monograph on Lodz. But Gene Alley seems unaware of Hilberg's third major revision. I am not surprised.
 
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3) Arthur R. Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, IHR, New Port Beach, California, 1976, 1992, p.22.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Oth...ies&Liars/FabricationOfTheNurembergTrials.htm

A bunch of coerced confessions to agree with the testimonies of a few LIARS made 65 billion dollars and counting.


"The shattering effect of the holocaust on the Christian conscience results in a feeling of collective indebtedness to the Jews."

The above is a get out of anything and profit from it to boot card.
Could you name the defendants, at least a number of them, whose testicles were crushed by maniacal Jews or Jewish bedfellows? Also the names of the maniacal Jews and Jewish bedfellows and how you know they were maniacs? With citations to primary sources.
 
Cut out the bickering and personal attacks. Address the topic.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
Mr Caution asks for an incriminating trail of memos. Mr Caution is doubtless aware how we are told that the path to the gas chamber was called Himmelfahrtstrasse (Roadway to Heaven)

What is the first mention we see of this term?

It is a memo from Sefton Delmar to Leonard Ingrams, 8 June 1941, regarding the agenda of Black propaganda radio station Gustav Siegfried Eins

In part:
5. Our listeners are intended to feel they are eavesdropping on the private wireless of a secret organisation, whose members presumably know what the programme of the organisation is. When the listener learns of this programme he picks up by studying the news that we put over. He finds that we are anti-communist who once thought Hitler pretty good, fought alongside him in fact, but are now appalled at the corruption, godlessness, profiteering, place-hunting, selfishness, clique rivalries, party-above-the law system, which the party has instituted.
Gustav Eins is appalled at the left swing in social politics which is coming under the aegis of the Hitler-Stalin hook up and which is going to give the party bureaucrats even greater power.
6. GS1 by its organisation is able to get plenty of new from everywhere inside Hitler Europe, news which all tends to show directly, or (preferably) indirectly, that every man for himself is the axiom every intelligent German should be following.
7. We have already put over directly and by implication
That Wehrmacht soldiers, the best element in the Volk, are being bumped off in Himmelfahrtskommandos, while the SS party police are being given cushy jobs home to make Germany safe for the Partei.

Is this the sort of memo Mr Caution has in mind?

Edit: Actually, Mr Caution is correct. I was thinking this was related to the rumours that were being spread at this time that wounded Wehrmacht soldiers were being subjected to Euthanasia, but a Himmelfahrtskommando is just slang for a suicide mission.
 
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Another memo Mr Caution might be interested in is a paper by Robert Byron dated 5th October 1938, discussing the implications of the Munich crisis.

Paragraph 3 Pseudo-documents
"There will come a stage when it is desired to circulate documents which look as if they were of official, or at least of domestic, origin. To give these the proper aspect needs a careful study of Nazi methods of presentation and use of symbols. Designs of swastiks, wreathed, tilted and straight; of the eagle cum swastika, and of Hitler's personal standard, should be ready for blockmaking."
Mr Byron then stresses the importance of collecting stocks of photographs of Hitler, of badges of Nazi organisations and of having the right qualities of paper.

Is this the type of memo Mr Caution is seeking?
 
Mr Caution asks for an incriminating trail of memos. Mr Caution is doubtless aware how we are told that the path to the gas chamber was called Himmelfahrtstrasse (Roadway to Heaven)

What is the first mention we see of this term?

It is a memo from Sefton Delmar to Leonard Ingrams, 8 June 1941, regarding the agenda of Black propaganda radio station Gustav Siegfried Eins

In part:


Is this the sort of memo Mr Caution has in mind?
Not really. I asked for a coherent summary, not more one-offs, an explanation tying things together and using documents and other sources.

Besides which the use of a term in one context, in this memo, with a completely different meaning to a related but not the same term, used in an entirely different context, hardly seems to indicate much of anything. But this is a secondary concern: even if your gambit had any merit, it isn't what I asked for.
 
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Another memo Mr Caution might be interested in is a paper by Robert Byron dated 5th October 1938, discussing the implications of the Munich crisis.

Paragraph 3 Pseudo-documents
"There will come a stage when it is desired to circulate documents which look as if they were of official, or at least of domestic, origin. To give these the proper aspect needs a careful study of Nazi methods of presentation and use of symbols. Designs of swastiks, wreathed, tilted and straight; of the eagle cum swastika, and of Hitler's personal standard, should be ready for blockmaking."
Mr Byron then stresses the importance of collecting stocks of photographs of Hitler, of badges of Nazi organisations and of having the right qualities of paper.

Is this the type of memo Mr Caution is seeking?
Does the memo mention the Holocaust? Did forged documents relating to the Holocaust result? Are you now back in favor of the forging you dismissed this morning?
 
Does the memo mention the Holocaust? Did forged documents relating to the Holocaust result? Are you now back in favor of the forging you dismissed this morning?

Where did I dismiss forging? On the contrary, I suggested it was quite an easily achievable outcome and that departments existed, that are well documented (of which this memo is further evidence), to carry it out.

You can tell what a man really thinks by the way he lies.
 
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Where did I dismiss forging? On the contrary, I suggested it was quite an easily achievable outcome and that departments existed, that are well documented (of which this memo is further evidence), to carry it out.

You can tell what a man really thinks by the way he lies.
I misunderstood then - I thought that by calling the list of specific forgeries I had coped and shared utterly silly you were dismissing a long list of particular forgeries in favor of generalized blether about what could be done. Which--blethering generally about possibilities--come to think of it is what you are still doing.
 
It was utterly silly because it was padded out with things which obviously weren't forgeries.

It mentioned Hoess's testimony about four times as being a forgery - which suggests the person doesn't understand what the word forgery actually means. It included Gerstein discussions with Ubbink, again suggesting the compiler of the list struggles with the very basic definition of forgery.

But I don't demur that the Sonderkommando diaries were certainly forgeries - and we have a good idea who the forger was - Ber Mark.
 
It was utterly silly because it was padded out with things which obviously weren't forgeries.

It mentioned Hoess's testimony about four times as being a forgery - which suggests the person doesn't understand what the word forgery actually means. It included Gerstein discussions with Ubbink, again suggesting the compiler of the list struggles with the very basic definition of forgery.

But I don't demur that the Sonderkommando diaries were certainly forgeries - and we have a good idea who the forger was - Ber Mark.
Thank you for clarifying. As I recall, the list was meant to give denier claims of forgeries. I think it did widen out from forgeries created, for example, in your Moscow Factory to include inauthentic documents, such as Staeglich claimed with Hoess.

As you weighed in, I thought, in support of Saggy's proposition on forgeries, I misunderstood your point--and, frankly, it surprised me. I can now await your apology for calling me, twice, a liar on this and your proof that Sakowicz's journal, Czerniakow's diary, Tory's diary, and Kaplan's diary were all forged.

I am glad we've worked on this together and reached an understanding, correcting Saggy's mistake on the role of forging in hoaxing.
 
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