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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Clayton Moore said:
He's saying the St. Gilberts can do no wrong.
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Except he's wrong. Martin Gilbert doesn't have the exactitude or methodology of a lot of other historians. He's more of a sort of "popular" historian, despite his "official" position as biographer of Churchill. He's a nice enough guy — I've had some limited correspondence w/him — but I don't think he tops most people's lists of historians of the period.
 
Wroclaw said:
Except he's wrong. Martin Gilbert doesn't have the exactitude or methodology of a lot of other historians. He's more of a sort of "popular" historian, despite his "official" position as biographer of Churchill. He's a nice enough guy — I've had some limited correspondence w/him — but I don't think he tops most people's lists of historians of the period.
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There's nobody in your camp discrediting him, is there?
 
Clayton Moore said:
I'm not defending anyone's actions. I'm taking up for those vindictively falsely accused.
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So here's what I don't get about you guys. Even if the Nazis hadn't gassed Jews or otherwise brutalized more than you people claim — and let's be crystal clear here: they absolutely murdered millions of Jews, including using gas chambers — you're still talking about major war crimes and crimes against humanity. You believe "only" 100,000 people died at Auschwitz, about 75,000 of whom were Jews? That still constitutes one hell of a war crime.

The Nazis openly did things that other armies wouldn't dare do, e.g., Lidice, 1:100 reprisals against civilian populations, etc. Their conduct during Barbarossa made Sherman's march through the South look positively civilized. Compared to the Nazis' occupation of the Soviet Union, the West Bank (which seems to inordinately preoccupy you people) is like a freaking amusement park.

You fret over Dresden? Take a look sometime at what the Nazis did to Warsaw in 1944. Think the blockade of Gaza is bad? The Nazis did far worse to Leningrad over 900 days. That you would defend such simian behavior is disgusting.

If you walk away from these debates having learned nothing else, then learn this: We would have hanged the Nazis at the end of the war with or without the Holocaust, and Israel would be here today with or without it. The sheer brutality of the SS and its "policy" toward the Jews up until extermination would have guaranteed both.
 
Clayton Moore said:
I'm not defending anyone's actions. I'm taking up for those vindictively falsely accused.
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You´re defending the Jews from the accusing of having caused WW2 and being behind Communism? I certainly didn´t expect that of you...
 
Clayton Moore said:
The executions were events. The state's objective was to kill the person not to "pull the plug" so to speak.

The mythical Nazi gassings were assembly line killings where speed, safety, and cost would be of concern.
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Apologies for all for not following up on this sooner. I had to attempt to track down a lot of information.

There are several insurmountable problems with your assertion. First, the speed of killing wasn't a bottleneck. The Nazis could kill thousands of people a day with Zyklon B, if necessary. The bottleneck was disposing of the bodies.

Second, you have failed to demonstrate that vacuum asphyxiation would be faster or cheaper than gas; you merely asserted it without providing any evidence.

The original dimensions of the Krema II gas chamber were 30 m x 7 m x 2.41 m, for a floor and ceiling area of 210 m2 (2260 ft2) , and a volume of 506 m3 (17,800 ft3). (source) There were seven concrete support pillars and a central support beam that were all approximately 1/2 meter square. These would have reduced the floor and ceiling area by about 20 ft2, and the volume by about 390 3). Rounding down we'll take the floor and ceiling area to be approximately 2200 ft2, and the volume to be approximately 17,000 ft3. The ceiling was made of 22 cm (9 in) of reinforced concrete covered by 45 cm (18 in) of dirt. (same source). Packed earth weighs about 125 lbs/ft3, so the dirt creates a load on the roof of about 200 lbs/ft2.

In order to kill people relatively quickly, a vacuum of about 0.10 atmospheres would have been required. The pressure at the top of Mount Everest is about .28 atmospheres, and victims of aircraft decompressions at around .20 atmospheres have remained alive for periods of over an hour.

Normal average atmospheric pressure is 14.7 pounds per square inch (psi). Reducing the pressure in the chamber to 0.10 atmospheres will create an additional load on the roof, floor, and walls of 13 psi, or almost one ton per square foot. This is ten times the load that the roof was planned to support. So please explain how using vacuum asphyxiation could have been accomplished without destroying the former gas chamber, or building a much stronger and more expensive vacuum chamber.

Further, in order to create a vacuum, a vacuum pump would have been required. This is the same as an air compressor, except the intake and outflow are reversed. I couldn't find any data on 1940s-era German air compressors, so we'll use the data for a modern 1300 cubic-foot-per-minute (cfm) diesel compressor, which uses about 19 gallons of fuel per hour. The volume of air to be evacuated would have been the volume of the chamber minus the volume of the victims. People are mostly water, so we'll take the volume of a 125-lb person to be equal to the volume of 125 lbs of water, which is 2 ft3. 125 lbs. is probably high, because the vast majority of the victims were women, children, and old people, many of whom had already been starving for months or longer. Krema II had a capacity of 2500 victims. 17,000 - 2500 x 2 = 12,000 ft3 required to be evacuated to 0.10 atmospheres.

The time to evacuate a vacuum chamber is given by:

t = V / q ln(p0 / p1)

where

t = evacuation time

V = evacuated volume

q = volume flow rate of the vacuum pump

p0 = initial pressure

p1 = final pressure


This yields a time to evacuate the chamber of about 21 minutes, asssuming neglible leakage. This will require about seven gallons of diesel fuel. Further, the compressor/vacuum pump requires spares, lubricants, and maintenance, and if it breaks down, the chamber is useless until it's fixed.

5-6 kg of Zyklon B was required to exterminate 2500 victims; Zyklon B cost RM5 per kg. That comes out to US $12 for 6 kg at the 1941 exchange rate.

So please explain, if you would, CM, how vacuum asphyxiation is so clearly cheaper and more efficient than Zyklon B, that the Nazis would undoubtedly adopted it. As has been explained to you, the issue of safety is actually not an issue at all, as the Nazis used Jewish prisoners to clear out the dead from the gas chambers.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
So in one part of the camp they saved lives? While just down the road they killed everyone?
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Are you able to calm down, focus, and summarize the views you object to, what you find wrong with them, and how they were formed? If, on this topic, you were able to do this, you would realize the idiocy of what you posted here.
 
Wroclaw said:
So here's what I don't get about you guys. Even if the Nazis hadn't gassed Jews or otherwise brutalized more than you people claim — and let's be crystal clear here: they absolutely murdered millions of Jews, including using gas chambers — you're still talking about major war crimes and crimes against humanity. You believe "only" 100,000 people died at Auschwitz, about 75,000 of whom were Jews? That still constitutes one hell of a war crime.

The Nazis openly did things that other armies wouldn't dare do, e.g., Lidice, 1:100 reprisals against civilian populations, etc. Their conduct during Barbarossa made Sherman's march through the South look positively civilized. Compared to the Nazis' occupation of the Soviet Union, the West Bank (which seems to inordinately preoccupy you people) is like a freaking amusement park.

You fret over Dresden? Take a look sometime at what the Nazis did to Warsaw in 1944. Think the blockade of Gaza is bad? The Nazis did far worse to Leningrad over 900 days. That you would defend such simian behavior is disgusting.

If you walk away from these debates having learned nothing else, then learn this: We would have hanged the Nazis at the end of the war with or without the Holocaust, and Israel would be here today with or without it. The sheer brutality of the SS and its "policy" toward the Jews up until extermination would have guaranteed both.
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And let's add to this comment that there was a long prehistory to the war, the crimes of the war years, and the genocide. I am not trying to argue a straight line from the Weimar years and 1930s (with their violent and threatening rhetoric by Nazi leaders and in Nazi publications, relentless demonization and dehumanization of Jews and others whom the Nazis considered outsiders, hooligan attacks on Jews, boycotts of Jewish businesses, anti-Jewish legislation, state and party theft of Jewish property and businesses, and major pogroms like Reichskristallnacht) to the genocide, but . . . why do these guys approach the war years as though they appeared de novo and without any build-up or context? What do they have to say about the pre-war years, during which, without a single wartime massacre, the Third Reich was already acting against its self-defined opponents in criminal ways.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski During their meeting Roosevelt suddenly interrupted his report and asked about the condition of horses in occupied Poland.
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President Roosevelt's question is not all that odd. The German army in the east was still mostly using horse drawn artillery. A lack of horses is the same as a lack of petrol. "Wespes", "Hummels" and other motorised artillery were yet to become common place.

Despite highly ballyhooed emphasis on employment of mechanized forces and on rapid movement, the bulk of German combat divisions were horse drawn throughout World War II

German Horse Cavalry & Transporthttp://www.lonesentry.com/articles/germanhorse/index.html
 
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