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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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No, A'isha linked to a book, The Good Old Days (1991). This contains the reference:

The same reference "Az. St.L. 29/42" is given in another version on Amazon (page 286). The lists of abbreviations in the book don't seems to help with "Az" or "St.L" (unless there is something in the hidden pages 282-83?). So who's "document index" is being referred to?

"Az." is Aktenzeichen, or file code. "St.L" is the the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen.

"Az. St.L. 29/42" is, therefore, "File number 29/42 in the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen's archives".
 
"Az." is Aktenzeichen, or file code. "St.L" is the the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen.

"Az. St.L. 29/42" is, therefore, "File number 29/42 in the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen's archives".

No. The German edition (p.254) clearly says 'the judgement of the Supreme SS and Police Court in Munich has the Az. St.L. 29/42'. Az. is short for Aktenzeichen, a standard abbreviation at the top of a variety of German documents, but it's not usually used as a file code in archives.

St.L. will be initials of persons involved in the case, this was the 29th thing from those individuals/that desk or whatever, in whatever series this was, in 1942.

The reference given is ZSt. Verschiedenes, Bd. VIII, Bl. 119ff. ZSt. here does indeed mean the Zentrale Stelle.

This would be the best place to look, but the original documents might hail from either the SS files in the Bundesarchiv or the Berlin Document Center (Taeubner's personnel file).

The main study of this case (by Yehoushua Buechler in Holocaust and Genocide Studies) used copies from the Ludwigsburg case made by Yad Vashem, but IIRC, German historians have cited the same sources from German archives.

The key sources were definitely NO-series Nuremberg documents, photostats of the originals.
 
No. The German edition (p.254) clearly says 'the judgement of the Supreme SS and Police Court in Munich has the Az. St.L. 29/42'. Az. is short for Aktenzeichen, a standard abbreviation at the top of a variety of German documents, but it's not usually used as a file code in archives.

St.L. will be initials of persons involved in the case, this was the 29th thing from those individuals/that desk or whatever, in whatever series this was, in 1942.

The reference given is ZSt. Verschiedenes, Bd. VIII, Bl. 119ff. ZSt. here does indeed mean the Zentrale Stelle.

This would be the best place to look, but the original documents might hail from either the SS files in the Bundesarchiv or the Berlin Document Center (Taeubner's personnel file).

The main study of this case (by Yehoushua Buechler in Holocaust and Genocide Studies) used copies from the Ludwigsburg case made by Yad Vashem, but IIRC, German historians have cited the same sources from German archives.

The key sources were definitely NO-series Nuremberg documents, photostats of the originals.

Ooops. :blush:

I stand corrected, then.
 
Juergen Matthaeus, 'Controlled Escalation', HGS 21/2, 2007, pp.218-242, references the entire case in note 50 to

BDC-file Max Ta¨ubner, National Archives, College Park (NARA), A 3343, reel B-171, frames 118–237

The corresponding paragraphs before the note summarise things cited in Yehoushua Buechler's article on Taeubner, Buechler was using as mentioned YVA copies via Ludwigsburg

100 or so pages = a very typical length for a judicial paper trail in an SS officer's personnel file, the judgements are short, the correspondence can be extensive.

So there's essentially no doubt where the docs are; they can be viewed in College Park, Maryland, by anyone who can enter the US on a tourist visa, and there won't even be a record of the viewing since the microfilm room is self-service; or they can be viewed at the Bundesarchiv in their Berlin Document Center collection, since the originals were microfilmed for NARA after the US handed over control of the BDC to reunified Germany. You can even order NARA microfilm reels as digital copies.

As I've seen the most important of these docs in facsimile and read about them in several locations, plus have the Klee et al collection with the excerpt, there is no doubt in my mind what they mean. There is zero wiggle room to claim the sources have been misinterpreted or misrepresented; my copy of Klee is in German so they haven't been mistranslated, either.
 
I find it somewhat disturbing that there exists (in small numbers) people who are willing to claim that the holocaust never happened, all of the evidence is fake because reasons, all of the interlocutors must perforce be on the payroll of the ebil gubmint, a gubmint, some gubmint somewhere, in some country, which has jurisdiction over everyone else, because.

What? You want to challenge that claim? Clearly you are an NWO nazi stooge.
Evidence? What would that mean?

And so it proceeds.
 
EtienneSC, earlier you wrote of the Max Taübner judgment, "Accepting it as genuine for the moment". In reference to your writing "for the moment," I asked you this:
Why do you qualify your comment with this phrase?
Do you still feel the need to make such a qualification, or do you agree that the SS court's judgment is genuine?
 
There were "many occurrences of punishments, including death sentences, of German soldiers, officers, civil servants, meted out by court martial or military tribunals in Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, France". Presumably for the Commissar order, the laws of war would apply and it was directed against presumed combatants. It was controversial at the time and so implemented sporadically at most according to Louis Paget in his defense of Manstein.

Deaths by starvation happened on both sides. Few of the German prisoners from Stalingrad ever returned home, for example.

I fail to see where you explain the deaths of more than 3 million Soviet POWS in this.

They, including the Commissars, dropped like flies. About 2 million were dead less than one year after the invasion of the Soviet Union.

In comparison, 8,300 British and American POWS died in German captivity.

Could you point out which "laws of war" explain such a startling difference in POW treatment?

Before Operation Barbarossa began in 1941, the Wehrmacht determined that Soviet prisoners taken during the upcoming campaign were to be withdrawn from the protection of international and customary law. Orders issued to subordinate commands suspended the German military penal code and the Hague Convention, the international agreement that governed the treatment of prisoners. Although the Soviets had not signed the Geneva Convention regarding POWs, the Germans had. Article 82 of the convention obliged signatories to treat all prisoners, from any state, according to the dictates of humanity.
 
I fail to see where you explain the deaths of more than 3 million Soviet POWS in this.

They, including the Commissars, dropped like flies. About 2 million were dead less than one year after the invasion of the Soviet Union.

In comparison, 8,300 British and American POWS died in German captivity.

Could you point out which "laws of war" explain such a startling difference in POW treatment?
EtienneSC implies that Soviet POWs only died because of starvation, which, he also implies, was a factor of war on both sides: "Deaths by starvation happened on both sides. Few of the German prisoners from Stalingrad ever returned home, for example."

Your reply answers this false equivalency well. I would like to add something from a discussion ongoing elsewhere about KL Dachau. One of the purposes to which Dachau was directed during the war, and especially in the months following the launching of Barbarossa, was the liquidation of Soviet POWs.

In this regard, starting in October 1941, 1000s of Soviet POWs were brought from the east to Dachau. The exact number is not known, because these captives were not registered into the camp. They were instead taken directly to the SS shooting range at Hebertshausen, which lay less than 2km north of the Dachau camp. At Hebertshausen Soviet POWs did not starve - rather, they were shot. Prisoners employed in the Dachau laundry counted 6,000 Red Army uniforms, with bullet holes, that they laundered to arrive at an estimated execution toll. Recent research sets the minimum number shot at 4,000. Some Soviet POWs were taken into the camp - postwar testimony identifies some victims of medical experimentation at Dachau as Soviet POWs, also executions of Soviet POWs continued, e.g., 31 were shot in February 1944 near the crematorium and 92 were shot in September 1944 in the crematorium. Similar actions were part of the remit for Majdanek (KL Lublin), KL Auschwitz and other concentration camps.
 
Attached are images of transcripts of two documents relating to the executions of Soviet POWs. The first document is an order requiring that Soviet prisoners selected for execution be handled more discreetly in they way in which they were brought to the Dachau camp - by no longer including very sick and dying prisoners on the transports of condemned prisoners. The second document communicates Himmler's order that from then (15 November 1941) on selections from transports of condemned Soviet POWs be conducted to remove work-capable prisoners from the ranks of those to be executed. Both the executions and, more generally, the forced labor in certain war-related industries were contrary to international law, as were the conditions under which the forced labor occurred.

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from Distel & Jackusch, eds, Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945, pp 176-177
 
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Trials and punishments under them are detailed in Alfred de Zayas The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945 (Rockport, Picton, 2000) 19,24.

If I am well informed the main topic of this book is the enquiries of the Wehrmacht about the war crimes perpetrated by the Allied forces and not the countless war crimes of the Wehrmacht.

There were "many occurrences of punishments, including death sentences, of German soldiers, officers, civil servants, meted out by court martial or military tribunals in Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, France". Presumably for the Commissar order, the laws of war would apply and it was directed against presumed combatants. It was controversial at the time and so implemented sporadically at most according to Louis Paget in his defense of Manstein.

In his book "The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality" German historian wolfram Wette provides a figure of 15,000 to 20,000 German soldiers executed during WW II, but for desertion. How many German soldiers have really been put on trial in front of a military court for crimes of war, in particular on the Russion front between 1941 and 1945?

On the contrary it seems that some of them have been executed because they have tried to help Jews. This was the fate of Anton Schmid but he was most probably not the only one.

Beside Manstein was not the only German General in command of the Wehrmacht during the war in Russia. Most of them have applied the Commissar Order, were perfectly aware of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen on their (not very far) rear and have provided them with at least logistical help in mass-killings of Jews. In fact the Wehrmacht has played a very active role in the mass-murders which have taken place in Ukraine, Russia and Belarus during the whole war. No serious historian discuss this anymore.


Deaths by starvation happened on both sides. Few of the German prisoners from Stalingrad ever returned home, for example.

So what? Does this make the death by starvation or other means of more than 3 millions of Soviets POVs more acceptable?
 
No, Faurisson won the case. The XVIIth penal chamber of Paris declared on 21 May 2007 that "the defendant (Robert Badinter, formerly of LICRA) had failed to provide proof" of his claim on an ARTE TV programme on 11 November 2006 that he had shown Faurisson to be a "falsifier of history" prior to becoming Minister of Justice in 1981. The court merely held that Badinter had spoken in good faith, which is probably what you are referring to.

Badinter's reference was to a legal case in 1981 and a 1983 appeal. These proved so embarrassing to the French establishment that the Fabius-Gayssot law was passed in 1990, making it illegal for Faurisson or other revisionists to advertise or distribute commercially the results of their research in France. Hence people often falsely believe that Faurisson did not continue his research after that date, or that his results are not available privately to interested parties. There are currently seven volumes of his revisionist writings and he has many supporters, at Rivarol and elsewhere.

So if you wish to see a real "falsifier of history" in this case, try looking in the mirror!

Faurisson sued Badinter in front of a court for defamation. When all was finished not only was Badinter relieved of all charges but Faurisson had to pay him 5,000 Euros as reimbursement for his judicial expenses. This is a weird way to win a court case…

In its conclusions the court stated that Faurisson “had tried to base on an alleged critical research with scientific and historic character his will to deny the pain of the genocide victims, to rehabilitate nazi criminals who decided and executed it and in that way to feed the provocations to anti-Semitic hate and violence”. The court also added that the audition of witnesses and the documents relating to holocaust denial “show that within the scientific community, the methods of the requirer (i.e. Faurisson) are regarded as those of a falsifier and his productions not only have no credit, but are unanimously rejected because they totally lack of seriousness” (point 30 of this analysis made by a real lawyer, unfortunately in French: http://droitcultures.revues.org/2526 ).

The fact that Faurisson continues to elaborate on a few words of the court decision (i.e. "the defendant (Robert Badinter) had failed to provide proof") in order to try to prove he won his case does not hide the fact that he got badly spanked by the court. The only result he gets while doing this is to prove that he is not only a bad historian (in fact not an historian at all) but also a very poor lawyer.
 
This thread has become unwieldy and I wish to refocus on the main factual points.

The Content and Sources of the Taubner Verdict
This document would alter my view of the SS, so I have ordered a second hand copy of the The Good Old Days which reproduces it. It seems similar in implications to and thus would corroborate Himmler's Posen speech. I have also been advised by email that a copy (I think of a copy) of the original verdict is readily available and I will look into this. I am attempting to act like a defense attorney or devil's advocate and question every bit of unfavorable evidence. If I end up feeling like OJ Simpson's defense team at a Trump rally, so be it. It's a legitimate task.

Konrad Morgen and Monowitz
No, I have not read Conscience of a Nazi Judge, but only skimmed parts online. It looked interesting, but when I saw by searching Amazon that the author's said nothing about the Monowitz "gaffe" and hence knew nothing of revisionism, I figured their judgement would be impaired.

It has been stated that Morgen later claimed he simply mistook the name of Monowitz for Birkenau. However, the description he gave at Nuremberg of the location of the gas chambers corresponds in substance and not only in name to Monowitz, and not to Birkenau:
MORGEN: I thoroughly investigated the entire stretch of territory and studied the layout and installations. [...] The Extermination Camp Monowitz lay far away from the concentration camp. It was situated on an extensive industrial site and was not recognizable as such and everywhere on the horizon there were smoking chimneys. [...] The actual killing was done by another Unterfuehrer who let the gas into this room.
So he is both claiming an informed opinion resulting from investigation and he gets it wrong. It's my understanding from photos that Birkenau consisted of barracks with related facilities and was not an industrial site. Monowitz was or contained a Buna (synthetic rubber) factory site, with chimneys, etc.

I gather that you wish to make points about Morgen's wartime work. I don't have a copy of Conscience of a Nazi Judge, but can discuss if you provide full citations of documents that you wish to draw conclusions from.
 
It has been stated that Morgen later claimed he simply mistook the name of Monowitz for Birkenau. However, the description he gave at Nuremberg of the location of the gas chambers corresponds in substance and not only in name to Monowitz, and not to Birkenau:

So he is both claiming an informed opinion resulting from investigation and he gets it wrong. It's my understanding from photos that Birkenau consisted of barracks with related facilities and was not an industrial site. Monowitz was or contained a Buna (synthetic rubber) factory site, with chimneys, etc.

This still doesn't get you a banana, because Morgen corrected his mistake in a subsequent interrogation, without being prompted. At most he was conflating elements of Monowitz (the industrial site) with Birkenau, except that Birkenau definitely had chimneys on-site, i.e. the crematoria.

What you have failed to quote is Morgen's deliberately deceptive introduction of East European collaborators as guards around the camp he describes. There were no such guards at either Monowitz or Birkenau in the period of 1943-44 when it is known that Morgen investigated Auschwitz; there were however foreign collaborator guards as part of the Majdanek guard force in mid-1943, when he visited the Lublin area. Emphasising foreign guards was intended to reduce the culpability of the SS, he was after all giving testimony as a defense witness for the SS as a whole, which was being charged as a criminal organisation.

Auschwitz did receive a company of Ukrainian Trawnikis in spring 1943, but part of this unit mutinied in July, and the company was transferred, to Buchenwald, before it is known that Morgen arrived at Auschwitz for his investigation.

The entire gambit is pointless in any case, since Morgen was just one of fifty or more SS officers and men testifying to gassings at Auschwitz in 1945-46; behind the scenes at IMT, Otto Moll was brought in to be confronted by Hoess, resulting in a rather amusing exchange as Hoess shot down Moll's excuses, which made very little difference to his fate, as Moll was already under sentence of death for his crimes at Dachau. Moll tried his damnedest to minimise his role at Birkenau but did not deny the crime.

Morgen's investigation at Auschwitz was corroborated at this time by others from his team, interrogated quite separately - eg Gerhard Wiebeck. And Morgen mentions things which are well-documented, such as the burning down of a wooden barracks used by the political department, in an attempt by SS men to destroy evidence of their corruption. Grabner's arrest and trial is so frequently attested by other witnesses from Auschwitz and Morgen's team as to be completely beyond all reasonable doubt.

Morgen testified that Dachau and Buchenwald were relatively orderly at the times he visited them, claims that simply did not mesh with the evidence given by everyone else - about conditions at the end of the war. So he was disbelieved at the time by IMT and NMT judges alike, yet we know that his impressions were much more accurate for 1943, when he conducted his investigations.(1943 saw a halving of the death rate at Dachau, albeit in part because they assiduously transferred weakened prisoners elsewhere to lower the death rate. Buchenwald saw 3500 deaths among the now almost entirely non-Jewish inmates in 1943.) It must be tempting for deniers to cherrypick such remarks and pretend they applied to the entire KZ system throughout the war, ignoring the well-documented changes in the system as well as differences between camps.
 
EtienneSC said:
This thread has become unwieldy and I wish to refocus on the main factual points.

EtienneSC has no answers to the fact that his "arguments" have been completely shredded re: Faurisson, The "Interests of the Victors", and the undeniable authenticity of the verdict against Max Taubner, and is trying to avoid further discussion of them.

EtienneSC said:
The Content and Sources of the Taubner Verdict

The authenticity of the Taubner verdict is undeniable and absolutely certain, since it has been established that the USA had no motive or reason to "manufacture" it on behalf of the Jews, or otherwise, because the US wanted to protect and use Nazis, instead of prosecuting and punishing them. And yet, there it was. It was written because the events it described and the case against Max Taubner happened. EtienneSC is in fact starting from an a priori assumption, instead of following the evidence to where it leads.

EtienneSC said:
No, I have not read Conscience of a Nazi Judge, but only skimmed parts online.

As LemmyCaution mentioned, Konrad Morgen was brought up because we were talking about Nazi laws and how they applied to the Nazis' victims. It was pointed out that the book talked primarily about documents made by Morgen during his wartime duties. Thus, his "gaffe" about Monowitz was irrelevant, and it's totally understandable for authors who focused on Morgen's wartime duties not to touch upon it, given the fact that it belongs to a different subject.

EtienneSC said:
hence knew nothing of revisionism, I figured their judgement would be impaired.

Holocaust denial is a lie. It is the Deniers' like EtienneSC whose judgement is impaired, not Historians who study actual historical documents. Just look at EtienneSC's constant refusal to discuss the actual aims of the victors of world war two, because they don't fit into his impaired judgement. Holocaust Denial isn't entitled to any attention or study: it is the Deniers who have to prove that their silly fantasies warrant more than being thrown into the garbage, by presenting a case built on solid evidence. They have failed to do this, from foot soldiers like EtienneSC, to the "Flagship" of Revisionism, Mattogno.
 
Morgen's IMT testimony has to be read in the context of his testifying for the SS, as Nick Terry's post explains.

One more point that undermines EtienneSC's argument, best I can figure out what it is, lies in the fact that, for starters, in his 1964 Frankfurt trial testimony SS Judge Werner Hansen corroborated important points in Morgen's rendition of his work in Auschwitz. Specifically, Hansen testified that Morgen "informed me that the background for this murder indictment [against Maximilian Grabner, brought by Morgen in 1944, for the shooting executions of 2,000 prisoners from the Auschwitz bunker] was mass killings in Auschwitz. He had informed me that transports of prisoners came to Auschwitz [. . .] for the sole purpose being killed there" and that the orders may have come from Hitler for these mass murders. (P-S and V, p 94) Further, in additionally corroborating testimony, according to Pauer-Studer and Velleman, "Morgen's assistant Gerhard Wiebeck testifies that when Morgen showed him indictments of several SS members for corruption, he was amazed to see references to the gassing as well." (p 95)

What Pauer-Studer and Velleman are exploring here is not whether there were gas chambers at Birkenau and Auschwitz but Morgen's legal strategy in pressing corruption and atrocity charges in his investigations of the KLs.

It is important not to confuse one's own purposes or obsessions with those of authors or witnesses. In this case, Pauer-Studer and Velleman do not engage with revisionism 1) in part because explicitly their book does not review the historiographic literature but is focused on primary research and their own questions about Morgen and 2) by inference because revisionism has nothing to offer on the question at hand - and is marred by its disregard for scholarly standards and its failure to produce significant findings/analyses of the Third Reich to boot.

So, no, Pauer-Studer and Velleman do not spend time debunking revisionist memes, or attempts to throw shade across the evidence; with Morgen's testimony on Auschwitz, their focus is on contradictions they deem more important (e.g., his saying that he did not know about gassing there until visiting the camp) and for this they dig deeply into his Frankfurt Auschwitz trial testimony.
 
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This thread has become unwieldy and I wish to refocus on the main factual points.

The Content and Sources of the Taubner Verdict
This document would alter my view of the SS, so I have ordered a second hand copy of the The Good Old Days which reproduces it. It seems similar in implications to and thus would corroborate Himmler's Posen speech. I have also been advised by email that a copy (I think of a copy) of the original verdict is readily available and I will look into this. I am attempting to act like a defense attorney or devil's advocate and question every bit of unfavorable evidence. If I end up feeling like OJ Simpson's defense team at a Trump rally, so be it. It's a legitimate task.
What this sounds like, rather than the heroism of a defense attorney, is a fishing expedition for something, anything that would confirm your biases by finally maybe possibly supporting the suspicions you have, which arise from your biases and not from anything in the record. It reads like a scramble to find something to fit a conspiracy theory.

You have no reason to suspect this verdict other than that you don't want to - it doesn't conform to your preconceptions.

Do you now retract, as I asked before, your insinuations that there's something fishy or forged with the Taübner verdict? Or can you state evidence based reasons for doubting the verdict?
 
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I gather that you wish to make points about Morgen's wartime work.

You gather wrong. I was trying rather to keep to the topic in which Morgen came up: the existence of special Nazi legislation for different groups of people and in the East.

You can't deflect from your failure on this point by introducing a different issue related to Morgen. As you can see, I'm happy to discuss that different issue, too, but, please, let's not mischaracterize the discussion.
 
This thread has become unwieldy and I wish to refocus on the main factual points.

The Content and Sources of the Taubner Verdict
This document would alter my view of the SS, so I have ordered a second hand copy of the The Good Old Days which reproduces it. It seems similar in implications to and thus would corroborate Himmler's Posen speech. I have also been advised by email that a copy (I think of a copy) of the original verdict is readily available and I will look into this. I am attempting to act like a defense attorney or devil's advocate and question every bit of unfavorable evidence. If I end up feeling like OJ Simpson's defense team at a Trump rally, so be it. It's a legitimate task.

In an effort to be helpful I will you give the Taubner Verdict, Nizkor reproduced it from "The Good Old Days."

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/t/taubner.max/taubner-1943-verdict

However, I'd say it would do you some good to read the book.
 
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