General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[CaptainHowdy]

Why would the Nazis delouse people at Treblinka then send them east in an unhygienic cattle truck to a ghetto where they would simply pick up more lice?

I thought Treblinka was the end of the road for these people. Why do you think they left Treblinka in an unhygienic cattle truck?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I thought Treblinka was the end of the road for these people. Why do you think they left Treblinka in an unhygienic cattle truck?

Holocaust deniers pretend Treblinka was a transit camp. Therefore holocaust deniers must be claiming the Jews were deloused at Treblinka and then "sent somewhere" in the the same unhygienic cattle trucks that took them there. which is just silly.

The comment was making fun of holocaust deniers and their strange fantasies. Do you think Treblinka was a transit camp?

 

[EtienneSC]

May I suggest to you that David Cole is a compulsive liar and he will use any name, tell any story and make any statement, that he thinks will make him money.

Let us make that assumption (which of course you phrase only as an insinuation and which I do not accept), he still has interesting recordings of private statements and admissions by individuals close to the self-proclaimed "skeptic" community in the USA that seem to conflict with their public pronouncements. There is also one discreditable smear that could have been left out. Here he is for example on Michael Shermer calling Raul Hilberg "remarkably ignorant" about the gas chamber issue and admitting that the Jewish death toll in WW2 could be as low as 1 million: Part One and part Two.

 

[EtienneSC]

Do you think Treblinka was a transit camp?

Eric Hunt argues that it was in his latest critique of the Treblinka excavations documentary played last year on UK Channel 5. Here it is: Video
He recently visited the site in person and identifies the opening "mass grave" dig as taking place in a Christian cemetery. He is also original in identifying that some of the bones on the early Soviet photos are probably animal bones to judge from their apparent size. The video covers some of the points made recently about transits through the AR camps and the shower tile patterns here and on similar discussion boards.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Here he is for example on Michael Shermer calling Raul Hilberg "remarkably ignorant" about the gas chamber issue and admitting that the Jewish death toll in WW2 could be as low as 1 million: Part One and part Two.

Here is the actual quote from the "1995 phone conversation" of Michael Shermer. The phone call is not with David Cole himself.

Dr Shermer on phone : "There is no doubt in my mind that David Cole went to these gas chambers to find problems. And often, we know in science and in any other field, you find what you are looking for. I think he believes the gas chambers were not used for homicidal mass murders. Therefore he's going to find things that don't make sense because that's what he's looking for. So why hasn't anyone else noticed these problems. It could be that there is problems. Maybe he's right. I think the gas chamber story, in terms of physical evidence is the weakest link. To me it doesn't matter if the existing gas chamber is exactly true. Maybe it could be modified. To me it doesn't change to whole holocaust at all because millions still died. It could be six million or five million or four or three or two or one, I would still consider it a holocaust."

David Cole then directly lies and says "Michael Shermer thinks the gas chambers are the weakest link in the whole story" Michael Shermer said the physical evidence was the weakest link in 1995.

In 2013 and 2014 the forensic archeological team from Staffordshire university excavated the gas chamber. David Cole's video is from 2014 and doesn't mention this.

In the same way Eric Hunt deceitfully edited eyewitness testimonies to suggest steam chambers and so on at Treblinka, David Cole is editing 10 year old phone calls and still getting it wrong. Neither of them acknowledge the gas chamber at Treblinka that has recently been excavated and documented.

 

[EtienneSC]

In 2013 and 2014 the forensic archeological team from Staffordshire university excavated the gas chamber. David Cole's video is from 2014 and doesn't mention this.

In the same way Eric Hunt deceitfully edited eyewitness testimonies to suggest steam chambers and so on at Treblinka, David Cole is editing 10 year old phone calls and still getting it wrong. Neither of them acknowledge the gas chamber at Treblinka that has recently been excavated and documented.

As a thought experiment Matthew, why don't you try applying the same criteria people apply in professional life to your views on history - as if history were a serious subject and it mattered what happened to the Jews. For example, if someone discovered a payment and said "Now I have uncovered a fraud!" would that not strike you as a logical leap, unless it were shown that the payment was unauthorized? If someone said "You have to pay our invoice, a railroad employee has kept private records and says the goods were delivered!" would you be obliged to pay? Here you refer to "the gas chamber at Treblinka that has recently been excavated and documented". In fact the Colls team identified some tiles that may or may not belong to a gas chamber. They correspond to an eyewitness description. Are you not making the same sort of logical leap that you would question if something serious - e.g. client money - were involved? And here it is a charge of murder with some of the supposed perpetrators still living!

 

[Border Reiver]

Eric Hunt argues that it was in his latest critique of the Treblinka excavations documentary played last year on UK Channel 5. Here it is: Video
He recently visited the site in person and identifies the opening "mass grave" dig as taking place in a Christian cemetery. He is also original in identifying that some of the bones on the early Soviet photos are probably animal bones to judge from their apparent size. The video covers some of the points made recently about transits through the AR camps and the shower tile patterns here and on similar discussion boards.

If Treblinka was a transit camp, there would be records of the trains leaving with people from the camp. There are documents showing that the trains arrived with people, then left empty.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Eric Hunt argues that it was in his latest critique of the Treblinka excavations documentary played last year on UK Channel 5. Here it is: Video

Eric Hunt, upon his release after being sentenced to non voluntary psychiatric care, has produced another propaganda video, using stolen footage, this time from both Channel 5 and Shoah. In his previous propaganda video, he deceitfully removed entire paragraphs sentences from eyewitness testimonies so as to suggest scenarios that never occurred. The most blatant include Rosenberg's original testimony about seeing "steam room" (laundry) in the German officer barracks in Minsk, that Eric Hunt edited to suggest Treblinka. Eric Hunt also deliberately edited together and confused Treblinka I labour camp eyewitnesses with Treblinka II extermination camp events.

In this new video, we have more of the same. The new "bits" include a claim

"We have proved that tens of thousands were transited out of Treblinka in our previous video". This is farcical claim. Eric Hunt himself could not explain how he calculates this on the Skeptic Society forum. He left after modifying his claim from the video, stating the gas chambers at Treblinka were actually air raid shelters. ( He could not explain why they had wooden roofs)

It is the Staffordshire University forensic investigation of Treblinka 1 & II, and the documentaries on that dig, that suffer his stranger delusions. Generally these arguments, presented here by holocaust deniers from CODOH, have already been debunked earlier, on this JREF forum. This includes the video footage of "Trench Three" in Treblinka 1. Despite the video showing Christian gravestones at Treblinka 1, Eric claims that Staffordshire University only found 40 bones and thus the holocaust never happened. ( It's the wrong Treblinka, Eric )

The maddest claim in the new video is naturally on the manufacturer's mark on the tiles lifted from the floor of Treblinka's old gas chamber. I initially made the same mistake and thought they were "Star of Davids". So did an archaeologist on screen in the documentary, Dr Ivar Schute. However, the correct identification of the manufacturer's mark already existed on the Staffordshire University's web page "Preliminary Investigations into Treblinka". The miss-identification has been resolved openly and clearly.

Eric Hunt argues that because an archaeologist misidentifies the manufacturer's marking on a tile, despite being corrected by Staffordshire University....that the holocaust never happened. Even stranger, Eric Hunt does not question that the tile came from the old gas chamber. It is quite bizarre and weird to watch.

Naturally, neither Eric Hunt's first or current video mentions the confessions by the German commanding officers of Treblinka, the forensic evidence of 20,000 square metres of human ash found by the Polish investigation lead by Justice Lukaszkiewicz, the Hofle telegram, the mass burial pits found at Treblinka II extermination camp, train records, and so on and so on.

As we all know Eric Hunt pleaded insanity at his previous conviction and this indicates the level of delusions going on in his current propaganda video.

"I had been sucked into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories on the Internet" that deny the Holocaust, "I do not deny the Holocaust. I am not Nazi, racist, white supremacist or anti-Semite. I have tremendous remorse for scaring you." "I don't believe any of that garbage now that I'm taking my medication."

"Hunt's attorney, John Runfola, said his client was in a delusional state caused by bipolar disorder"

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Wiesel-tormentor-must-seek-mental-health-care-3272563.php

 

[Mynott]

I see the Treblinka as a Transit center is still doing the rounds among the holohoax industry. Still avoiding the basic and fundamental question as to the documented whereabouts of the 700,000 or so sent there and beyond.?
Its time the industry fronted up with the evidence of these " resettlement " centers way out East. Its the usual stuff - RHSA records, other Reich archives , Red Cross ,Guards and , of course , resetters recollections of their R & R etc.
Stump up please.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

As a thought experiment Matthew,

Before moving onto "thought experiments" I'm going to ask you some real world questions.

You are the member of CODOH, the holocaust denier's forum, and you posted the David Stein and Eric Hunt videos on this forum.

1) Did you watch the David Stein videos before posting them here?

2) If so, were you already aware that David Stein lied and misquotes Dr Michael Shermer about "physical evidence of gas chambers"?

3) Did you watch the Eric Hunt propaganda videos before posting them here?

4) If so, can you explain Eric Hunt's quote "We have proven that tens of thousands transited out of Treblinka II in our previous video" and where would I find this evidence in Eric Hunt's previous video? ( please supply time marks)

5) Do you agree Eric Hunt edited testimonies, for example, removing Rosenberg's clear statement he saw the "steam room" in the German guards barracks in Minsk and not in Treblinka?

6) Why do neither of Eric Hunt's propaganda video mention the confessions of the German commanding officers at Treblinka, The Hofle telegram, Adolf Eichmann's confession, The 1945 Polish forensic investigation, railway movement records and other strong and varied types of evidence?

why don't you try applying the same criteria people apply in professional life to your views on history as if history were a serious subject and it mattered what happened to the Jews.

Why are you talking to me? You are the holocaust denier who posted Eric Hunt's propaganda videos here. You are very aware Eric Hunt has, with intent, misquoted eyewitnesses, edited eyewitness statements, misleadingly withheld evidence ( CO confessions, Polish investigation etc) and misrepresented evidence ( Trench three, in the documentary, was at Treblinka I the labour camp and not Treblinka II the extermination camp, thus the Christian gravestones)

May I see your post to Eric Hunt and David Stein, your fellow "revisionist historians" alerting them to all their errors? Revisionist do revise, don't they?

Here you refer to "the gas chamber at Treblinka that has recently been excavated and documented" . In fact the Colls team identified some tiles that may or may not belong to a gas chamber.

No. What were the only two brick buildings at Treblinka? ( hint :The gas chambers). Where did the eyewitnesses see the orange tiles ( hint : The gas chambers). What is at the location on the German and Jewish eyewitness maps at the locations Staffordshire University excavated ( hint : The gas chambers). What did the German Commanding officer confess they executed jews in, at Treblinka, at these locations ( hint : The gas chambers)

Do you share the view of your fellow holocaust denier, Eric Hunt, that these two brick buildings were air-raid shelters ( that are on the other side of the camp to the German barracks and only had wooden roofs)

Here is a photo of the Old Gas chamber taken by German Commanding officer Kurt Franz. Do you think this building is an air raid shelter? Please give all your evidence for your position.

 

[EtienneSC]

1) Did you watch the David Stein videos before posting them here?
2) If so, were you already aware that David Stein lied and misquotes Dr Michael Shermer about "physical evidence of gas chambers"?
3) Did you watch the Eric Hunt propaganda videos before posting them here?
4) If so, can you explain Eric Hunt's quote "We have proven that tens of thousands transited out of Treblinka II in our previous video" and where would I find this evidence in Eric Hunt's previous video? ( please supply time marks)
5) Do you agree Eric Hunt edited testimonies, for example, removing Rosenberg's clear statement he saw the "steam room" in the German guards barracks in Minsk and not in Treblinka?
6) Why do neither of Eric Hunt's propaganda video mention the confessions of the German commanding officers at Treblinka, The Hofle telegram, Adolf Eichmann's confession, The 1945 Polish forensic investigation, railway movement records and other strong and varied types of evidence?

Anyone who looks above can see that you choose not to answer two simple factual questions yourself. This makes my point: there are inquiries into matters of fact, and there is "holocaust studies", with different cognitive criteria applying to each. To revert to Marxist terminology, the latter functions as ideology.
1. Yes, or why else would I have linked to them. 2. No, though it's a matter of a potentially misleading gloss or summary, as anyone who listens to the original can hear. 3. Yes, see 1 above. 4. I can't locate the words you put between quote marks. Hunt does say (6.10) that revisionists "have proof of 10s of thousands claimed transited through Treblinka, by Jews themselves." He says (54.10) "we know 10s of thousands were relocated to work in real factories". He refers to "credible evidence of 100s of thousands of Jews being expelled Eastwards" in relation to a newspaper report on refugees (53.40) Where does he refer to the previous video? 5. Can you provide the time mark & video reference? I'm interested and would like to know more. 6. He is not being exhaustive: the video One Third of the Holocaust deals with more of the purported evidence.

You are very aware Eric Hunt has, with intent, misquoted eyewitnesses, edited eyewitness statements, misleadingly withheld evidence ( CO confessions, Polish investigation etc) and misrepresented evidence ( Trench three, in the documentary, was at Treblinka I the labour camp and not Treblinka II the extermination camp, thus the Christian gravestones)

I have your statements that he has done so, but I think your main discussion is on a different forum as regards intent and misquotation. The main problem with the grave excavation is that Colls did not indicate in the documentary that she was excavating in a Christian cemetery. It was only Hunt's visit that brought this to light. If he is correct, that is a significant revelation. All she has found is evidence of two buried corpses, perhaps Christian, the scorched surface bone of uncertain provenance and a shark tooth. Frankly I'm surprised at the lack of remains, particularly teeth.

May I see your post to Eric Hunt and David Stein, your fellow "revisionist historians" alerting them to all their errors? Revisionist do revise, don't they?

They do indeed revise. For example, several of the videos on CODOH have gone through different editions. I'm happy to raise specific factual criticisms of Eric Hunt's voice-over (please give time mark references and supporting references) on CODOH. You are free to contact him yourself.

No. What were the only two brick buildings at Treblinka? ( hint :The gas chambers). Where did the eyewitnesses see the orange tiles ( hint : The gas chambers). What is at the location on the German and Jewish eyewitness maps at the locations Staffordshire University excavated ( hint : The gas chambers). What did the German Commanding officer confess they executed jews in, at Treblinka, at these locations ( hint : The gas chambers)

Do you share the view of your fellow holocaust denier, Eric Hunt, that these two brick buildings were air-raid shelters ( that are on the other side of the camp to the German barracks and only had wooden roofs)

Here is a photo of the Old Gas chamber taken by German Commanding officer Kurt Franz. Do you think this building is an air raid shelter? Please give all your evidence for your position.

History involves evidence, not "hints". Do you accept the eye-witness evidence for shower rooms? If so, how do you distinguish them from the gas chambers?
The building does not look like an air raid shelter to me, but I'm no expert.

 

[EtienneSC]

I see the Treblinka as a Transit center is still doing the rounds among the holohoax industry. Still avoiding the basic and fundamental question as to the documented whereabouts of the 700,000 or so sent there and beyond.?
Its time the industry fronted up with the evidence of these " resettlement " centers way out East. Its the usual stuff - RHSA records, other Reich archives , Red Cross ,Guards and , of course , resetters recollections of their R & R etc.
Stump up please.

The best evidence to date is in Mattogno et al's The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhard" (2013) - see link below. It is certainly unsatisfactory, but so is the supposed evidence of the remains of 700,000 to 900,000 victims at or near the camp.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The best evidence to date is in Mattogno et al's The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhard" (2013)

You left off the other co-author of "your best evidence", Jurgen Graf.

"Rather than begin serving the politically-motivated prison term that was to commence in October, Jürgen Graf is staying in Tehran at the invitation of a group of Iranian scholars and university professors who are sympathetic to Holocaust revisionism."

He works for the Iranians after absconding on bail for assault charges. Have you also read his work on Iranian websites?

Jurgen Graf
"A very significant example is the vicious propaganda against the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Jews and their stooges bitterly hate Iran because that country has dared to challenge the political, military and cultural imperialism of the world's only remaining superpower, the Zionist-led USA. It is of paramount importance to remember that the people who are constantly lying about "gas chambers" and "six million" are the same ones who relentlessly vilify Iran and the Islamic Revolution. They are, incidentally, the same people who propagate abortion, gay rights (including the right of homosexuals to marry a partner of their own sex and the right of homosexual couples to adopt children), hard-core pornography, and similar abominations."

Do you think he might be biased?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The main problem with the grave excavation is that Colls did not indicate in the documentary that she was excavating in a Christian cemetery. It was only Hunt's visit that brought this to light.

Those large stone cross shaped things, that were continuously on screen, are called Christian gravestones. As a general rule, the people buried underneath them are Christians. I hope that helps you in the future.

Was Eric Hunt the only person at the CODOH "history" forum, who recognized them?

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Those large stone cross shaped things, that were continuously on screen, are called Christian gravestones. As a general rule, the people buried underneath them are Christians. I hope that helps you in the future.

Was Eric Hunt the only person at the CODOH "history" forum, who recognized them?

How does digging up bodies in a Christian cemetery prove that the Holocaust happened?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

How does digging up bodies in a Christian cemetery prove that the Holocaust happened?

No Captain Howdy. The Christian graves were at Treblinka I, the labour camp. The extermination camp was at Treblinka II. The holocaust deniers are just a bit more confused than normal recently and didn't recognise the Christian gravestones at Treblinka I. Are you having the same problem?


And how about you? Do you still think Treblinka II was a transit camp? Do you support the "views" of Jurgen Graf that I posted earlier?

 

[Mynott]

The best evidence to date is in Mattogno et al's The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhard" (2013) - see link below. It is certainly unsatisfactory, but so is the supposed evidence of the remains of 700,000 to 900,000 victims at or near the camp.

Lets just focus on the claim that the 700,000 were at Treblinka in transit.This obviously suggests that they were sent elsewhere.
All I ask is for the evidence for this.? There could be a number of sources including e.g Reich archives including possibly those in Moscow.There would be some form of records and accounts from German SS, SD and Wehrmacht Personnel. Those Jews in transit themselves.
You must have something tangible surely.? If not why not.?

 

[CaptainHowdy]

No Captain Howdy. The Christian graves were at Treblinka I, the labour camp. The extermination camp was at Treblinka II. The holocaust deniers are just a bit more confused than normal recently and didn't recognize the Christian gravestones at Treblinka I. Are you having the same problem?

Your tone implies that it's obvious that Caroline Sturdy Colls was excavating trenches in a Christian cemetery outside of the labour camp at Treblinka 1. That's not obvious at all because what does Caroline Sturdy Colls expect to find buried in a Christian cemetery located near the Treblinka 1 labour camp that will serve as evidence that Treblinka 2 was a death camp?

 

[Dcdrac]

Matthew is not saying that Christian graves at Treblinka 1 is evidence for the FACT backed up by HARD evidence based on HISTORICAL records and testimony that Treblinka 2 was a death camp.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Your tone implies that it's obvious that Caroline Sturdy Colls was excavating trenches in a Christian cemetery outside of the labour camp at Treblinka 1.

It was obvious. That's where trench 3 was. That's why the documentary showed Christian crosses. Indeed the Eric Hunt propaganda videos show this exact same footage of crosses lifted from the documentary.

Have you actually watched the documentary? Have you actually watched Eric Hunt's propaganda video?

That's not obvious at all because what does Caroline Sturdy Colls expect to find buried in a Christian cemetery located near the Treblinka 1 labour camp that will serve as evidence that Treblinka 2 was a death camp?

It's called gathering evidence. A good forensic archaeologist is going to poke around everywhere to understand the dig's "environment". That's what detectives do. A forensic archaeologist has to follow where the evidence takes them, and not just dig in places to confirm what they all already know.

Additionally, in digs, you have to gather "controls" which means gathering soil samples, soil acidity, etc, in close by areas, to allow comparison to the target area. I'm not saying that trench three was for this purpose, but you will see Staffordshire University's team digging in unrelated areas to gather this control information. That's why this dig is called "a survey of Treblinka". The university is following standard practices.

However, are you denying that Staffordshire University's survey has directly excavated the old gas chamber at Treblinka II? Do you consider that good evidence? If not, why not?