General Eisenhower, a war criminal?

[Solus]

I thought this was going to be about his orders to cut rations for German POWs. Pretty lousy attempt at trolling, only one link and it's wikipedia. If you want to troll a better choice is General Montgomery. I'd say he is the real war criminal on account of being such a horrible general. The Brits defend him and I can't blame them since the last time they had a great general was over a hundred years ago with Wellington.

 

[Lensman]

There was a case of an US Army officer who ordered the killing of some POWs, he was Court Martialled, convicted & sentenced to a term in a military prison & kicked out of the Army.

 

[Chaos]

Call me crazy if you must, but I oppose butchering people without a fair trial to be a sort of bad thing, Geneva convention or no.

Hell, I oppose the death penalty in all cases. But in cases where the people applying it do so under the rallying crying of "**** fair trials, lets have us a lynching!", even more so.

That sort of thing tends to happen, in war. A jewish guy, finally getting a chance to personally pay back some of the criminals who tried to exterminate his people... he´d have to be superhuman not to do this, when the opportunity presents himself.
Now, had the people on the receiving end (I try to avoid calling these particular folks victims) been civilians not involved in the camp, or even regular Wehrmacht soldiers, it would be a different story.

 

[Gregory]

That sort of thing tends to happen, in war. A jewish guy, finally getting a chance to personally pay back some of the criminals who tried to exterminate his people... he´d have to be superhuman not to do this, when the opportunity presents himself.
Now, had the people on the receiving end (I try to avoid calling these particular folks victims) been civilians not involved in the camp, or even regular Wehrmacht soldiers, it would be a different story.

I agree with all this; but I won't make the leap from "he´d have to be superhuman not to do this, when the opportunity presents himself" to "it was a good thing that he did it." I'm not blaming the shooters; if my family died in a concentration camp and I suddenly had the opportunity to get revenge, I don't know what I'd do, but I can at least imagine myself doing the same thing. But no matter how understandable it is, and even realizing that I might do the same thing if I were ever placed in a similar situation, I simply can't find it in myself to look at the massacre of surrendered, unarmed people and say, "job well done!"

 

[Chaos]

I agree with all this; but I won't make the leap from "he´d have to be superhuman not to do this, when the opportunity presents himself" to "it was a good thing that he did it." I'm not blaming the shooters; if my family died in a concentration camp and I suddenly had the opportunity to get revenge, I don't know what I'd do, but I can at least imagine myself doing the same thing. But no matter how understandable it is, and even realizing that I might do the same thing if I were ever placed in a similar situation, I simply can't find it in myself to look at the massacre of surrendered, unarmed people and say, "job well done!"

Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought this was a good thing. I don´t. In this particular case, I´m just in the "stuff like that happens; so what?" camp.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Executing or even mistreating prisoners of war is poor strategy. If word gets back to the enemy that it's not in their best interests to surrender, then they are going to fight to the death.

The more attractive surrender is to the enemy, the easier it will be for you.

 

[latent aaaack]

Most people continue following orders and doing their job even if the orders are evil so I can't even say that these concentration camp guards are particularly deserving of death. The only difference between them and ordinary people is that the latter has not been given the order, as the Milgram experiments (although obvious) helped show. I agree that it's a non issue though, them being killed in the heat of the moment.

 

[dudalb]

Strictly, the convention in force at that time would have required the
SS troopers to have "a fair and regular trial" and then be dealt with in
accordance with the civilian laws of the detaining power.

The reports of the "Dachau massacre" seem to suggest little more than
soldier-boys getting out of hand.

Which after seeing what Dachau was like, is understandable.

 

[dudalb]

War Criminal is a name usually applied to the loser (if applicable) not the winner (even if applicable).

Thanks for playing right in the Neo Nazi's hands with this "Moral Equvilency" crap.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Do you consider General Eisenhower to have been a war criminal?

He executed 300 SS camp guards after their surrender at Dachau concentration camp.

I say shooting prisoners is a war crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp

Nope. First off, Eisenhower had nothing to do with it. Secondly, the 300 SS guards that Eisenhower refers to in the communique were neutralized before, not after, surrender. Less than twenty SS guards were found to have been killed by U.S. troops after the surrender.

 

[MaGZ]

I agree with all this; but I won't make the leap from "he´d have to be superhuman not to do this, when the opportunity presents himself" to "it was a good thing that he did it." I'm not blaming the shooters; if my family died in a concentration camp and I suddenly had the opportunity to get revenge, I don't know what I'd do, but I can at least imagine myself doing the same thing. But no matter how understandable it is, and even realizing that I might do the same thing if I were ever placed in a similar situation, I simply can't find it in myself to look at the massacre of surrendered, unarmed people and say, "job well done!"

Jews are different from others when it comes to revenge and atrocities. Read the Old Testament.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Jews are different from others when it comes to revenge and atrocities. Read the Old Testament.

How is the Old Testament different from most other accounts of human behaviour in the Bronze Age?

 

[Athyrio]

Jews are different from others when it comes to revenge and atrocities. Read the Old Testament.

Still think Ike is a war criminal?

 

[Doctor Evil]

How is the Old Testament different from most other accounts of human behaviour in the Bronze Age?

Ohh, I think I can answer that. Its less violent compared to some of the cultures existing at the time (assuming its actually true). For instance the Assyrians created a strong empire by either destroying of enslaving whoever stood up to them. They have left us with inscriptions where their kings boast of the cruelties they inflicted on their enemies. Really horrid stuff such as flaying their enemies and displaying their skins and 'leftovers' at the gate of a rebellious city.

They were so unpopular that when Nineveh was sacked it was destroyed to the ground. In fact when Xenophon and his troops past there, less then three centuries later, the locals did not remember that the very impressive but destroyed walls were those of Nineveh.

This is just one example. Then there are the Romans, the Carthaginians (ancient sources tells us that at times of crises they will have huge ceremonies in which they would burn some of their children alive with their mothers watching. This seems to be a contentious subject.), and more. The stories in the bible are rather tame compared to other cultures of the time.

I assume that for MaGZ all this is irrelevant since they were not JOOOS.

 

[SDC]

How is the Old Testament different from most other accounts of human behaviour in the Bronze Age?

Better psalms and snappier proverbs.

 

[Nogbad]

Thanks for playing right in the Neo Nazi's hands with this "Moral Equvilency" crap.

A mere empirical observation is nothing more than that. Neither does it alter the fact that many Germans did commit criminal acts of unspeakable barbarity. The two ideas can be easily entertained in one mind without either contaminating the other - unless like MaGz one wanted them to (but that is given from the start).

Moral equivalence/moral relativism is one of those politically correct US things that I confess I am not all that familiar with and consequently the criticism is a bit lost on me. If it signifies the ends justify the means then morals are indeed a moveable feast.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Do you consider General Eisenhower to have been a war criminal?

He executed 300 SS camp guards after their surrender at Dachau concentration camp.

I say shooting prisoners is a war crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp

Hmm, a figure that cannot be verified, an accusation against someone that was not there compounded with an inability to understand basic English.

You are suffering from cranio-rectal insertion.

 

[gumboot]

These were not Waffen-SS men. Hence no soldiers. Hence no Geneva convention.

These murderers got what they deserved.

This is incorrect. Firstly, some of the German soldiers killed were not even SS at all, but regular German infantry. Secondly, the SS-Totenkopfverbände was placed into the Waffen-SS in 1942 and by 1944 soldiers were rotated from combat Waffen-SS units to Totenkopf Waffen-SS units on a regular basis. As such all Concentration Camp guards at the time of the invasion of Germany were Waffen-SS.

Finally, under the Laws of Armed Conflict all concentration camp guards were enemy combatants, protected by the Geneva Conventions. This did not change until the Nuremberg Trials when the Schutzstaffel was found to be an illegal organisation.

The Geneva Conventions state that any prisoner whose combatant status is unknown or in question must be treated as a POW until a competent tribunal can determine the status of the prisoners.

The execution of the dozen or so surrendered German soldiers at Dachau was murder, and a war crime.

 

[MaGZ]

This is incorrect. Firstly, some of the German soldiers killed were not even SS at all, but regular German infantry. Secondly, the SS-Totenkopfverbände was placed into the Waffen-SS in 1942 and by 1944 soldiers were rotated from combat Waffen-SS units to Totenkopf Waffen-SS units on a regular basis. As such all Concentration Camp guards at the time of the invasion of Germany were Waffen-SS.

Finally, under the Laws of Armed Conflict all concentration camp guards were enemy combatants, protected by the Geneva Conventions. This did not change until the Nuremberg Trials when the Schutzstaffel was found to be an illegal organisation.

The Geneva Conventions state that any prisoner whose combatant status is unknown or in question must be treated as a POW until a competent tribunal can determine the status of the prisoners.

The execution of the dozen or so surrendered German soldiers at Dachau was murder, and a war crime.

Thanks for making the point that under international law concentration camps are legal.

 

[Gurdur]

And I say shooting criminals like the SS camp guards is an act of justice. Good riddance.

Yup! Far more SS should have been shot.

Hey, MaGZ, your poor diddums SS got shot, oh dear, how tragic good.