Geller Vs. Randi

[geni]

Because exposing magic tricks for the public to see is considered unethical..

By those with a finacial interest in keeping them secret.

Simply because a group of people happen to consider something to be not in their best interests that doesn't make it unethical

especially when some of those effects are also performed by other mentalists who have done nothing wrong.

Patent for AZT expired in 2005. What did GlaxoSmithKline do wrong?

 

[geni]

They are both important in their own way, as exposing secrets is considered unethical in the magic world. I've heard from a few magicians who are against this kind of exposure, because it could also hurt them in the long run. And I agree with them.

Your position only makes sense if you assume that people have the right to make a living in a certian way.

 

[tsg]

They are both important in their own way, as exposing secrets is considered unethical in the magic world. I've heard from a few magicians who are against this kind of exposure, because it could also hurt them in the long run. And I agree with them.

First of all, the "magician's code" is only even arguably applicable to magicians: it doesn't obligate anyone else to protect their secrets should they be discovered. Whether Randi still considers himself among them, and whether he is bound by that code, is a decision only he can make.

But beyond that, while I agree exposing a trick's secret for no other reason than to hurt the magicians who perform them is not a terribly nice thing to do, the fact is that magicians have chosen a livelihood that depends on the secrecy of their art and should therefore be prepared for the possibility of that secret being discovered. Yes, the disclosure of how these tricks are done may hurt them in the long run, but it is a hazard of their profession. And if the benefit of the disclosure is greater than the harm, then the trade-off is worth it.

I will also add that the fact that someone has been able to make a living doing something does not automatically entitle him to keep doing so.

It would be interesting to know how many magicians support this idea. I would think that at least some of them would take offense to Geller using their art to delude people.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Randi does not have to and, based on my experience with him, will not expose the tricks by explaining how they are done. All he has to do is replicate them and say "It's a Trick, folks".

 

[DJM]

By those with a finacial interest in keeping them secret.

Simply because a group of people happen to consider something to be not in their best interests that doesn't make it unethical

Why did the Masked Magician need to wear a mask if he did nothing wrong and unethical? Most of the magicians hated his guts after he exposed the tricks on TV, and even had to leave the country because no one wanted to let him perform anymore after the exposures. So I guess people do care when it hurts their profession.

And I was saying it's unethical in the magic world to expose secrets, not in general. And since Randi used to be a magician, I advice him to expose Geller without telling the secrets. That's all. Unless he wants people to see him as the next Masked Magician.


By the way, Geller doesn't even perform much during the show, the mentalists do. He doesn't bend spoons there. I think the only thing he did during the Israeli show was "sending" mental messages to the viewers through the TV screen.

So what is for Randi to expose? No one will see Geller doing his usual routines anyway, as the focus of the show isn't even really about him.

 

[geni]

Why did the Masked Magician need to wear a mask if he did nothing wrong and unethical?

Val Valentino? Made better TV.

Most of the magicians hated his guts after he exposed the tricks on TV, and even had to leave the country because no one wanted to let him perform anymore after the exposures. So I guess people do care when it hurts their profession.

Careing does not mean ethics. You realise your argument could equaly used to show that say mafia informants are acting in an unethical manner.

And I was saying it's unethical in this magic world to expose secrets, not in general.

Not the only group I know of with a private set of ethics.

And since Randi used to be a magician, I advice him to expose Geller without telling the secrets. That's all. Unless he wants people to see him as the next Masked Magician.

What secrets? Or do you really think there is anything Geller does that a method for is not in the public domain.

 

[dudalb]

I still think that his exposing of Geller as a fraud on "The Tonight Show" was Johnny Carson's finest moment. Carson was a stage magician himself and knew a trick when he saw one.

 

[DJM]

Geni, Geller doesn't even perform much on the show. If Randi shows how to bend a spoon, what will it help if Geller won't even do that effect?

On the Israeli show Geller duplicated the drawing of someone who was in an airplane, while Geller is still in the studio many miles away. If he does something like that in Hungary, that would be pretty hard for Randi to expose completely.

 

[geni]

Geni, Geller doesn't even perform much on the show. If Randi shows how to bend a spoon, what will it help if Geller won't even do that effect?

Because everyone knows geller bends spoons.

On the Israeli show Geller duplicated the drawing of someone who was in an airplane, while Geller is still in the studio many miles away. If he does something like that in Hungary, that would be pretty hard for Randi to expose completely.

Doesn't have to. Just need to show a method for doing that kind of thing.

 

[Tipush]

Tipush, where have you been and how come you only have 39 posts?
oh, and you're wrong in your conclusion about the geller randi shows as I've written in post #4 so there and there...

Regards,
Yair

I was busy playing "Cults across America" which is a board game. I played Sylvia Browne and I lost to the guy who played the Flying Spaghetti Monster

:-(

Really cool game, you should try that the rest of the time is work work work....


Tip

 

[DJM]

Because everyone knows geller bends spoons.

The mentalists on the show do the same kind of things as Geller, like bending spoons, duplicating drawings etc. Geller doesn't care if people know it all can be done using tricks. He keeps saying that all he cares about is the performance. What Randi will do is basically "expose" the mentalists on the show, who already admit they are mentalists. Kinda pointless.

Doesn't have to. Just need to show a method for doing that kind of thing.

There is only one method to do this kind of thing, and it's not something that Randi can prove just like that. Only give a speculation.

 

[geni]

The mentalists on the show do the same kind of things as Geller, like bending spoons, duplicating drawings etc. Geller doesn't care if people know it all can be done using tricks. He keeps saying that all he cares about is the performance. What Randi will do is basically "expose" the mentalists on the show, who already admit they are mentalists. Kinda pointless.

I doubt it is pointless.

There is only one method to do this kind of thing, and it's not something that Randi can prove just like that. Only give a speculation.

What you described could be done by at least 3 different methods.

 

[DJM]

I doubt it is pointless.

It is a bit pointless, because in a way Geller already admits that some of his effects can be done using regular tricks. Since that's exactly what the mentalists who perform there do. They perform amazing and out of this world effects, but in real life admit they don't have any powers.

You could say that those mentalists are like little James Randis who show the world you don't need supernatural powers to bend spoons or duplicate a drawing. And obviously Geller doesn't care about that, since he's the one who created the show. That's why the idea behind Randi's own show won't be much different.

What you described could be done by at least 3 different methods.

To duplicate a drawing from someone who is located in a different country? I can only think of one way to do that and it doesn't involve a magic trick.

 

[tsg]

To duplicate a drawing from someone who is located in a different country? I can only think of one way to do that and it doesn't involve a magic trick.

I can think of several and I'm not a magician.

 

[DJM]

Not the way it was performed.

 

[Fasto]

But since there are different ways of achieving that one effect, wouldn't he have to expose most of them?
Otherwise Geller could use the situation to his advantage by claiming that yes, it can be done with a method that was exposed, and then do it using a different one.

 

[DJM]

Fasto, exactly. That's why I believe the whole exposure thing is pointless. Geller doesn't hide the fact that magicians can repeat those effects using tricks.. in fact he pretty much openly admits it.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Not the way it was performed.

And what is the "way it was performed"?

I am not a stage magician and don't know how this trick is done. But rest assured it is a trick. Unless you believe that Ug really does have magical powers.

What exactly are you arguing in this thread? All Randi has to do is duplicate the tricks. If you want some explanation of how they are done, go and see Penn and Teller. Part of their shtik is that expose a trick so that you think you know how it's done, and repeat it in a different, completely mystifying way.

 

[Aoidoi]

Not a magician, don't play one on tv or the internet. But really, are the tricks Gellar does "magic?"

Bend a spoon - use your hands.

Move a compass - use a magnet

Draw the same thing as someone else - draw it after he's revealed what he drew.

These things have all been demoed on tv repeatedly before. I don't think any of the explanations fall under "magicians' secrets" and I've never seen a magician bother with either of the first 2. The whole point of the tricks is hiding how you did it, not what was done (assuming you're not BSing about it being actual psychic abilities).

 

[DJM]

And what is the "way it was performed"?
I am not a stage magician and don't know how this trick is done. But rest assured it is a trick. Unless you believe that Ug really does have magical powers.

I'm saying that Geller sometimes performs effects that involve meeting the participant in advance, like in this case, and telling them exactly what to draw. Which is something that would be hard for Randi to explain without making it seem like some speculation.

What exactly are you arguing in this thread? All Randi has to do is duplicate the tricks.

But the whole show of Geller is about mentalists doing out of this world effects, and sometimes duplicating Geller's tricks. And they are regular magicians.

Geller's next show in America will most likely involve some well known magciains that never claimed of having powers, and Geller will be judging them.

He doesn't care about people knowing these things can be done using magic tricks, that's why Randi's show seems a bit unnecessary.