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Gays and Public Libraries

It's as true as the fact that a full set of teeth is a rare commodity in the south as well.
Thai, I'm with TM on this. Have you ever been to the South? I'm not talking southern California.

As much as I winge about Bush and the GOP, the South (as in Confederate) is a different planet all together. Except for Florida and it's large "wacko" magnet, the South (IMHO) is very cultured and refreshingly polite, in a truly sincere way (unlike the Canadians, who are just polite). There are pockets of ignorance but again IMHO but there is also lots of smart people who choose to live in the south for the climate.

Why do you hate the south?

Charlie (I just hate the weather) Monoxide
 
It's as true as the fact that a full set of teeth is a rare commodity in the south as well.

Your grossly unfair and untrue generalizations about my relatives has become offensive. I am not joking, and do not have my tongue in cheek.

Please stop. It isn't funny and never was.
 
I would be interesting to see regional issues like is the 43% of the country that believes sadam was connected to 9/11 concentrated anywhere.
 
Quick, honest question on this point – do you see a difference between someone walking by and seeing what I have on my computer screen and someone walking by and seeing what book I’m reading? What if I’m looking at a coffee table book of fine art photos and someone walks behind where I’m sitting and is shocked and offended that they can see a woman’s breasts – do we then start considering what print materials to ban to avoid possibly offending people?

I’m not trying to be confrontational, just wondering if there’s a difference to you between people walking by and seeing something they’re offended by in one medium versus another, and if so, why.

First of all, let me apologize for not being on the last few days. We were setting up for our move, and what time I had for internet was spent in mindless pursuit of video games. I.e, I was too tired to think. If I can, I will try to respond to everyone's questions. Once we leave the hotel, I will be silent for a few more days, so after today, I may drop this thread altogether.

Secondly. KoA, I have only one thing to say to you. Either reduce your caffine intake, or hit yourself over the head with a baseball bat. You're reacting way too strongly to what I said. When you calm down, we can have a rational discussion.

There is a difference in passing someone reading a book and someone looking at a computer screen. If you have a book on your lap, a person walking by can't see the title, and unless they're being nosy, they can't read what's on the page.

Web pages are generally a lot more colorful and easier to read at a distance. The closest I can get to an analogy would be walking past an un-curtained window on the ground level and walking past a building with an un-curtained room on the second or third level. You can see into the first window quite easily, even if you're not trying to. With the second window, you may notice that there isn't a curtain, but unless people are hanging out the window, you're not likely to see what's going on in the room.

As for controlling what my daughter is viewing, while that's easy here at home, or on occasions where I (or my wife) would accompany her to the library, at some point, she's going to be old enough to go on her own. I'm not saying the library is supposed to babysit her, but on the other hand, there is material that's not appropriate for a young child. Knowing that the library limits access to that material (for instance, by requiring kids under a certain age to stay in the children's room unless accompanied by an adult) makes it easier to send her off on her own.

Let's take this to the ridiculous extreme for a second, why don't we? Would you want to have your (hypothetical) five year old watching R-rated horror movies without you there to talk them through it? (Yes, I know you probably wouldn't send a five year old to the library by themselves, that's why it's called the ridiculous extreme).

As for objectionable material, I personally hold to the Safe for Workplace standards in regards to internet access. It's an easy standard-if it's Not Safe for the Workplace, then it shouldn't be accessible from a public library. It is not, despite everyone's protestations, censorship. If you want to go home and log on to the internet and view this stuff, you can. If you want to check a book out and read about it, you can. No one's stopping you. The information is still available, just not from a public computer. Why is this censorship?

As I mentioned above, I likely will not be back to the forum until next week, and thus, will not be posting to this thread. If you wish me to clarify specific points, go ahead and pm me.

Marc
 
If you want to go home and log on to the internet and view this stuff, you can. If you want to check a book out and read about it, you can. No one's stopping you. The information is still available, just not from a public computer.

It seems to me (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that many (most?) people using the internet at a public library do so because they do not have internet access at home (or do not even have a home).
 
It seems to me (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that many (most?) people using the internet at a public library do so because they do not have internet access at home (or do not even have a home).

Thats absolutely true. I can think of a couple of cases where the latter seems to be the case also. This is exactly what the library and learning centres are for.

However, being homeless does not entitle you to to watch hardcore porn in a public library. Porn is not a right. If you can't afford booze, don't go looking for it at a food bank. and if you can't afford your own porn, you won't find it at the library. (Unless you can make do with a national geographic...)

Marc said it well - NSFW = Not in the library.

You can't apply the same rules (or lack thereof) to the internet or the DVD collection as you can to the books or magazines.
 
Thats absolutely true. I can think of a couple of cases where the latter seems to be the case also. This is exactly what the library and learning centres are for.

However, being homeless does not entitle you to to watch hardcore porn in a public library. Porn is not a right. If you can't afford booze, don't go looking for it at a food bank. and if you can't afford your own porn, you won't find it at the library. (Unless you can make do with a national geographic...)

Marc said it well - NSFW = Not in the library.

You can't apply the same rules (or lack thereof) to the internet or the DVD collection as you can to the books or magazines.

So fiction as entertainment should not be in the library as entertainment is not a right. Only non fiction needs to be in the library?
 
So fiction as entertainment should not be in the library as entertainment is not a right.

No. And neither should DVDs, CDs, recreational magazines or computer games. :xrolleyes

But if someone did decide to introduce services like these, we should definitely stock porn mags and DVDs, and let people have unfiltered access to graphic pornographic websites, because to do otherwise would automatically be censorship. Which is always wrong.:book:

ETA: Plus you're deliberately missing the main point of that post which was - you can't apply the same rules to the internet as you would to books. No one in any library I know of would censor a book (other than to classify it as adult), but I've yet to encounter anyone (other than you) who has thought it a bad idea to apply sensible filters to the internet
 
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No. And neither should DVDs, CDs, recreational magazines or computer games. :xrolleyes

But if someone did decide to introduce services like these, we should definitely stock porn mags and DVDs, and let people have unfiltered access to graphic pornographic websites, because to do otherwise would automatically be censorship. Which is always wrong.:book:

ETA: Plus you're deliberately missing the main point of that post which was - you can't apply the same rules to the internet as you would to books. No one in any library I know of would censor a book (other than to classify it as adult), but I've yet to encounter anyone (other than you) who has thought it a bad idea to apply sensible filters to the internet

So what is so different between porn and other works in the library and online that are for entertainment instead of education?
 
Any library that accepts e-rate discounts for their internet service or an LSTA grant must filter in accordance with the Children’s Internet Protection Act (CIPA). In addition, public libraries have to comply with state laws regarding exposing children to, or allowing them to access, materials that are obscene or "harmful to minors." (As I understand it, "harmful to minors" is a considerably lower standard than "obscene." However, I am not a lawyer, and state/local laws vary.) According to CIPA, filters can be turned off for anyone over 17.

Complicating matters even further are EEOC regulations regarding harassment/hostile work environments. There are at least two cases where librarians filed grievances with the EEOC because of unrestricted porn surfing. (Minnesota and Chicago--American Libraries editorial on the Chicago case) Libraries have been sued for filtering and for not filtering (not the same libraies). Libraries attempt to navigate this minefield in a variety of ways. Some libraries filter willingly, some unwillingly to comply with federal/state regs. Some libraries don't filter, but still disallow porn surfing in their Internet Use Policy. Some libraries put their Internet terminals in very visible areas to discourage porn surfing (this can backfire with exhibitionists), some provide privacy screens or separate rooms for adult internet access. I'm not aware of any statistical breakdowns of types of policies used, but I've linked some samples at the bottom of the post.

Leonard Kniffle, editor of American Libraries (the official ALA journal), has written some good editorials on this topic. His main point being that opposing filters (because of overblocking legitimate material and underblocking porn) does not automatically imply endorsement of unrestricted porn access. [See also the editorial linked above.]

How Many Times Can They Say 'Children and Pornography'?
Kniffle, Leonard
Source: American Libraries; May 2002, Vol. 33 Issue 5, p41, 2/3p

While TV coverage of CIPA tended to sensationalize the issue and to concentrate on children and pornography, newspaper coverage has been much more rational. In fact, one of the best explanations for why librarians ought to oppose CIPA appeared in a modest editorial in the February 19 Tampa Tribune. I'm offering it to all my friends who will listen. It said, in part:

"The most compelling reason for this bill to go nowhere is that libraries are local institutions, and they protect children from pornography in different ways. Some have filters on terminals in rooms designated for children. Some have filters that can be turned on or off by library personnel. Many simply rely on old-fashioned parental instruction and supervision. In other words, local autonomy is important to community libraries, and state lawmakers should stand clear."

All of these methods are far superior to laws that block constitutionally protected speech and better than filtering software that doesn't work. I applaud every one of them, and every one is in keeping with the professional principles ALA is trying to uphold.
Ceaseless Filtering Flap Calls for One Assertion
Kniffel, Leonard
American Libraries; Oct 1999, Vol. 30 Issue 9, p40

The Wall Street Journal points out--correctly I might add--that a 12-year-old girl who does a Yahoo! search on the Internet and types in "girls" and "horses" in hopes of finding a camp for next summer will be offered [deleted].com , where she will find much language you'll never see in this magazine but nothing on equestrianism. Are parents foolish to be alarmed by this? Of course they aren't. The site itself contains a warning, urging parents to keep children out.

When challenged about what children can access on public library computers, ALA responds with evasive rhetoric. What is preventing this Association, as an organization of professionals, from coming out with a public statement denouncing children's access to pornography and offeting 700+ ways to fight it? It's bureaucracy at its best; we have relegated this topic to committee work.

[snip]

When it comes to children and pornography, you're a loser if you don't oppose it. People want to hear our opposition, so here it is. You can tell them you heard it here first in the official organ of ALA: Librarians are opposed to children accessing Internet pornography. We are opposed to it because Web sites such as [deleted].com do not serve the needs or interests of children and are of no value to them. Children who try to access such sites in our libraries will be instructed to stop. Furthermore, Internet filtering software used on children's terminals with good professional judgment and without restricting access to constitutionally protected information for adults is a reasonable option that is being exercised daily in a variety of ways by an ever-growing number of public libraries.

Now, can we get on with the business of lifelong learning, literacy, equitable access to information, and the real issues of intellectual freedom?
Some example Internet Use Policies:
New York Public Library
Allen County IN Public Library
Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
Cleveland Public Library
Santa Cruz Public Libraries
 
Children + Library Porn = Lawsuit

Adults + Library Internet Filters = Lawsuit

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Libraries exist to provide people with information they couldn't otherwise afford or find.

In our library, we make it as clear as we possibly can, that we are NOT babysitters, nor do we exist to monitor ANYONE's behavior. We simply leave it up to parents to decide what their children wil or won't be exposed to...

I respect the ALA public statements on the matter, but they stay far away from 'disallowing' adults access to whatever their heart desires. Censoring adults to protect children from what they 'might' see on someone else's screen is NOT what the ALA is or would EVER do, period.

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Marc:

Who's fault is it, if YOU look into someone's home through an un-curtianed window, and see something that offends you???
 

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