Galloway is back

[Toontown]

Now you're just flailing about randomly.

False. My criticism was aimed directly at the guy who randomly brought up something about Americans giving money to the IRA. Just flailing about randomly, looking to blame Americans for something, anything, that could even be remotely construed as being distantly related to the topic.

And that's just one instance of the ubiqitous deflection habit.

 

[stokes234]

False. My criticism was aimed directly at the guy who randomly brought up something about Americans giving money to the IRA. Just flailing about randomly, looking to blame Americans for something, anything, that could even be remotely construed as being distantly related to the topic.

And that's just one instance of the ubiqitous deflection habit.

Your criticism was aimed directly at a strawman. Nobody was "blaming" the americans for the election of george galloway, and yet that is what you answered. The point made was that there was never such a witchhunt in your country against people who sponsored what has been controversially termed "terrorism" overseas, so why should we be expected to adhere to those particular standards you're happy to shun?

 

[joolz]

Wildcat has been toying with you, but since you haven't clued in yet, let me tell you what's going on.

I did clue in and stopped responding. I don't profess to be perfect or know everything and am happy to admit errors if someone provides a valid explanation, but having a stranger pour vitriol claiming I am anti-semitic is neither a rational discussion nor a person I would ever wish to learn from.

The US never funded the Taliban.

I realise they didn't fund them directly. My point is that US money and weapons ended up being used by terrorists in the Taliban. As you say, this is because we 'dropped the ball', we didn't support the people in Afghanistan for long enough to achieve stability. I realise this is easy to see with hindsight, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the Taliban benefitted from the US.

We funded the Mujahideen, a loose collection of guerilla fighters in Afghanistan. During this period, the Taliban did not exist. After the Soviets left, we stopped funding them. The Taliban were founded some time after the Soviets left, and after US funding stopped. And we never funded them, Pakistan did. There's a lot to criticize about how we dropped the ball after the Soviets left, and even some moral ambiguity about our funding of the Mujahideen, but we never funded the Taliban. Anyone who claims we did is either a liar or a fool.

I spoke up because I believe 'the west' has a very patchy record intervening in the Middle East and picking who we support and who we fight. We often underestimate how our intervention will be perceived and just how much damage we can do. Of course some of our actions have been good, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't analyse the long term implications of our actions and be prepared to stand by them until we can leave a stable country behind us.

Coming back to the topic of George Galloway and Gaza, I think there would be a lot more condemnation of Palestinian agression if the west insisted the Israeli illegal settlements were removed. At the moment both sides are wrong and we should be condemning both sides, but we don't seem to be doing that.

Several years ago I went to Jerusalem with an Egyptian, he was on edge during our visit as he felt at risk from both sides. From Jewish people because he was an Arab muslim and from the Palestinians because he was Egyptian and Egypt had officially recognised Israel. That's a difficult situation to have with your neighbours. The West supported Mubarak, which created ill feeling in Egypt, then supported the rebels, which has resulted in the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Jewish press currently seems optimistic that things won't change and the Brotherhood have said they won't break the treaty with Israel and there are trade talks happening, but we don't know what the future holds. They said they wouldn't put us a candidate for the presidency but they now have. Whether you believe Galloway is right or wrong we should put pressure on, and be seen to put pressure on, all sides to resolve the Israel/Palestine issue urgently, before things get even worse, but we have to tread carefully while we do it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...acking-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html
http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFL6E8F340F20120403
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=264619
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCon...elegation-visits-Israel-to-discuss-trade.aspx

 

[Giz]

and be seen to put pressure on, all sides to resolve the Israel/Palestine issue urgently, before things get even worse, but we have to tread carefully while we do it.
[/URL]

Hmmm, genocidal religious fanatics on one side and liberal democracy on the other. The democracy has shown a willingness to give up land, money and supplies… the fanatics behave as if it is intolerable to even consider not calling for the elimination of their neighbour.

Equal pressure needed on both sides? One side happens to be much worse than the other. They need to be called on it rather than have excuses made ad infinitum.

 

[joolz]

Hmmm, genocidal religious fanatics on one side and liberal democracy on the other. The democracy has shown a willingness to give up land, money and supplies… the fanatics behave as if it is intolerable to even consider not calling for the elimination of their neighbour.

Equal pressure needed on both sides? One side happens to be much worse than the other. They need to be called on it rather than have excuses made ad infinitum.

I criticise both sides as there are crazy fanatics on both sides but your answer is that the Israelis are perfect? So liberal democracies build illegal settlements and the people in them say they will only be moved out if they are dead? That's liberal? Hmmm. Must check the definition!

To believe all Palestinians are 'genocidal religious fanatics' is as irrational as decrying all Israelis.

 

[Giz]

I criticise both sides as there are crazy fanatics on both sides but your answer is that the Israelis are perfect? So liberal democracies build illegal settlements and the people in them say they will only be moved out if they are dead? That's liberal? Hmmm. Must check the definition!

To believe all Palestinians are 'genocidal religious fanatics' is as irrational as decrying all Israelis.

Of course Israel isn't perfect and of course not all Palestinians are 'genocidal religious fanatics'. However, Israel is pretty committed to the rule of law, judicial oversight of the IDF, minimizing non-combatant deaths etc. A worryingly large amount of Palestinians aren't. Trying to hide from this fact and hope that peace might come if we just ignore the genocidal elephant in the room seems a little naive.

 

[joolz]

Of course Israel isn't perfect and of course not all Palestinians are 'genocidal religious fanatics'. However, Israel is pretty committed to the rule of law except in the illegal settlements, judicial oversight of the IDF, minimizing non-combatant deaths etc. A worryingly large amount of Palestinians aren't. Trying to hide from this fact and hope that peace might come if we just ignore the genocidal elephant in the room seems a little naive.

FTFY, also the use of phosphorus in areas contaiing civilians isn't 'minimizing non-combatant deaths'.

How am I 'hiding' from the fact that Palestinians are doing terrible things too when I've said clearly that they are also in the wrong? I think a lot of their action is from desperation in feeling the west supports Israel unconditionally, but that certainly doesn't justify their actions.

When I said 'we should put pressure on all sides' it means we need to get involved in getting a resolution. That is not ignoring it. This is one case where I can't see it being sorted without western help.

 

[Giz]

FTFY, also the use of phosphorus in areas contaiing civilians isn't 'minimizing non-combatant deaths'.

Because it was used as an artillery marker - not in massive bombardment "weaponized" usage. This has been explained already. Please consider giving up this ill-informed soundbite.

How am I 'hiding' from the fact that Palestinians are doing terrible things too when I've said clearly that they are also in the wrong?.

Where you say "also", I would say "mainly".

This is one case where I can't see it being sorted without western help.

I can't see it being solved until Palestinian kids are no longer brought up in suicide bomber summer camps...

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Wow, page 9 before this thread devolved into a generalised Israel vs Palestine thread. I had dibs on page 5.

 

[Pardalis]

 

[Pardalis]

Media Lens looks at the liberal media's response.

Funny that you have no problem to use the "liberal corporate media" whenever it suits you, but when it says something you dislike it's all a big conspiracy.

 

[Toontown]

I see.

Out of one side of your mouth, you say no one is blaming Americans for Brits electing Galloway:

Your criticism was aimed directly at a strawman. Nobody was "blaming" the americans for the election of george galloway, and yet that is what you answered.

Out of the other side of your mouth, you suggest that unless there is a witchhunt against IRA supporters in the U.S., Brits should not be expected to refrain from electing tyrant/terrorist sycophants:

The point made was that there was never such a witchhunt in your country against people who sponsored what has been controversially termed "terrorism" overseas, so why should we be expected to adhere to those particular standards you're happy to shun?

So, in this case Americans aren't being blamed, exactly. They are simply being used as an excuse to justify electing Galloway. Which, if you only had the honor to admit it, amounts to consciousness of guilt.

Oh, the semantic pedantry of it all. Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy, after obsessively criticizing Americans for electing Bush for half a decade. It is as if you are channeling Galloway.

On a brighter note, my final thought on this particular squirming contest is this: if Brits need to be shamed into refraining from electing people of Galloway's ilk, all I can say is I'm doing the best I can.

 

[angrysoba]

I can't be any more accurate than I was, so you may yet still fail to comprehend it.

You said: Galloway voters are paranoid and juvenile.

I said: He got 56% of the vote, including a massive swing from labour.

You said 56% of the Bradford voters are paranoid and juvenile, and that a great many labour voters are paranoid and juvenile.

You said: something juvenile and paranoid about 'crapping oneself'

I said: something in kind, suggesting that your rush to tar 56% of the voters as 'paranoid and juvenile' may be an indication that Galloway's victory frightens the crap out of you.

Are we clear now?

(As an aside, the number of posters here who appeal to an audience that they fondly hope haven't followed the exchange and won't scroll back is disappointing.)

Don't be silly.

I'm not remotely concerned about Galloway's election. I am responding to those who are worried about this election as if it heralds the coming of the Third Reich.

 

[angrysoba]

Why wait for me? It's the Brits who are doing all the caterwauling. When they're not rioting, they're whining on the internet, or trying to pick fights with Americans, as if it's all our fault.

Because you are the one who suggested that Britain is going to "jack up".

Whistling past the graveyard?

There are other ways a country can jack up besides going nazi. Going nazi was just one way one closely related country once jacked up.

I don't see much relation between the Weimar Republic and the UK. Very different political traditions ol' boy. Don't let the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha fool you.

 

[Toontown]

Because you are the one who suggested that Britain is going to "jack up".

So what's all the rioting, bitching, and austerity measures about?

Britain has already jacked up, thanks to the stupid Americans. At this point, we're only talking degrees of jacked-upness.

I don't see much relation between the Weimar Republic and the UK. Very different political traditions ol' boy. Don't let the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha fool you.

Quiet! I am twying to shame the cwazy wabbits into wefwaining fwom ewecting more Galloways.

 

[angrysoba]

So what's all the rioting, bitching, and austerity measures about?

Freedom's messy.

Britain has already jacked up, thanks to the stupid Americans. At this point, we're only talking degrees of jacked-upness.

Whoever tells you this is lying. The US copied the UK, not the other way around. Someday you too can have riots and bitching and electing reprehensible members to your parliament.

Quiet! I am twying to shame the cwazy wabbits into wefwaining fwom ewecting more Galloways.

Then I suggest starting a thread about Ken Livingstone because he's the nearest thing to a Galloway that's up for election.

 

[Toontown]

Freedom is austerity measures and riots?

I had no idea. BTW, I was being sarcastic when I said it's all the Americans' fault. Perhaps you are insufficiently versed in ingrained European habits. To them, everything is America's fault.

 

[angrysoba]

Freedom is austerity measures and riots?

I had no idea. BTW, I was being sarcastic when I said it's all the Americans' fault. Perhaps you are insufficiently versed in ingrained European habits. To them, everything is America's fault.

I've never been one to Yank-bash. My sense of fairness prohibits me.

But I'd appreciate it if you didn't refer to me as a "European". That stretch of water between Dover and Calais is not there for nothing you know.

 

[joolz]

So what's all the rioting, bitching, and austerity measures about?

For info - the recent 'British' riots have only happened in England. They were not throughout the UK. Welsh, N Irish and Scots have felt no need to riot. Scotland has a different political make-up and has more left wing governments than the UK, our government represents the views of the people Scotland as we got exactly what we voted for.

Galloway is back in an English seat at Westminster. He tried to be selected for the Scottish parliament via the additional members' list but failed.

 

[angrysoba]

Does anyone remember this?

This was a funny interview where George Galloway starts off trying to sound reasonable and then suddenly goes mental accusing a documentary-maker of persecuting Muslims by filming radical imams calling for the stoning of homosexuals and apostates.

At the end of his interview he starts yelling that he's the interviewer and he will ask the questions and that his "hooligan" guest will have to be thrown out!

Very funny!