Galloway is back

[JihadJane]

Galloway interviewed on Murdoch's SKY about his victory:

Tabloid journalism, which Galloway gracefully neutralizes.

 

[joolz]

Just as an aside, what definition of terrorism are you using? Because if elected/non elected governments can be called terrorists then it suddenly becomes quite difficult to differentiate between terrorist and non-terrorist.

America gives sack loads of cash to autocratic and repressive rulers with appalling human rights records all across the globe - what's the difference here?

Sackloads of cash to horrible regimes = good (when it's America)

Sackloads of cash to horrible regimes = bad (when it's not) ?

I don't think we can expect the USA to make a sensible judgement on this. We've known for years that, as a nation, the USA is quite fickle about who it supports. Funding the Taliban at one point as they were 'resistance fighters', then deciding they were 'terrorists' after all. Claiming the UK is a 'special friend' then having fundraisers so the terrorist IRA can bomb us. Standing by at genocides in Africa because they have no oil. Continuing to support Israel even after they used banned weapons (white phosphorus) to bomb and murder Gaza civilians and supporting the Israeli invasion of Palestinian territory. Condemning religious fundamentalists elsewhere while supporting their own. All that without even mentioning events in South America.

It's probably not all the fault of US citizens. The education seems to be slanted in several areas and the news there doesn't seem to have much time for much international reporting. Several Americans on JREF have made it clear that they have had a biased education, maybe that happens a lot? Quite a few don't understand that socially aware policies don't equal communism. One guy said he was taught that the USA pretty much won WWII and he only found out later that the Allies had all been fighting the Nazis for two years before the USA turned up. Another flamed me in a PM to say how much they have 'sacrificed' for 'many other countries' and referred to WWII and being proud that Americans have 'sacrificed hundreds of thousand of our countrymen for the good of the world'. She didn't seem to know that 16 million allied military personnel, from more than 20 countries, made the ultimate sacrifice in WWII, and the majority weren't Americans.

I really try hard not to blame individuals, I know everyone is different, and there are many, many highly intelligent and open minded Americans here on JREF who are worldly wise. I'm just sad for the USA as a whole. As I've said elsewhere, the USA could be such a power for good in the world, it has done a lot of good, but it could do a lot more and be a truly awesome world leader, instead it seems to prefer the role of a backward redneck.

 

[joolz]

Galloway interviewed on Murdoch's SKY about his victory:

Thanks for this, I hadn't seen it. He gets up my nose sometimes, but he also speaks a lot of sense. I'm one of the 'Labour for generations' people that he refers to and it's sad, but true, that they no longer speak for many of us. After the series of scandals that show just how out of touch our politicians are, perhaps it really is time for a radical change. Maybe Ken Livingston should start his own party and be Prime Minister or we could put up SNP candidates in England and Wales - they occupy Labour territory much better than Labour nowadays! I vote Alex Salmond for UK PM

 

[jiggeryqua]

Man, you don't ever give up...

Obviously false. Some opposition is explicitly non-democratic. Such opposition can indeed undermine the meme of democracy. It has happened in the past, and it will happen in the future. So you are again simply wrong.

Some opposition is explicitly non-democratic. And is axiomatically good for democracy. You really don't get it? Just chanting "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" is ok, I guess. All opposition is axiomatically good for debate

A vacuous and meaningless statement.

Ah, he stoops to conquer...

Opposition to what? There are many kinds of opposition, and opposition to democracy frequently hurts democracy - both actual democracies and the meme.

"Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!". The cut and thrust of debate, eh?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm not the one having the problem here.

I'm pretty sure you're no more convincing me of your position than I am you of mine. So that's two identical problems.

Welcome to a difference in common vocabulary. In the US, the legislature is considered part of "government". And that means all of the legislature, even minority parties or even independents. That is the sense in which I meant it.

Well you'd do well not to comment on UK politics if you're wholly ignorant of the system. Still wriggling, still squirming, still wrong when you claimed it was Galloway's job to desire to govern. To be honest, I'm not even sure that would make sense in the US but you're clearly desperate to save face, so I'll let that one go.

Go ahead, have the last word, it's on me.

 

[joolz]

'We're sick of the lot of you: Disgusted voters give ALL three 'out of touch' party leaders the worst poll ratings in history'

You should have put a nausea warning on this! The first photo in the link is vomit inducing. Almost as bad as the one of a smiling Brown shaking hands with Th*tch*r at Downing Street.

 

[WildCat]

I don't think we can expect the USA to make a sensible judgement on this. We've known for years that, as a nation, the USA is quite fickle about who it supports. Funding the Taliban at one point as they were 'resistance fighters', then deciding they were 'terrorists' after all.

Rense.com? Seriously?

Claiming the UK is a 'special friend' then having fundraisers so the terrorist IRA can bomb us.

And didn't that lead directly to the Good Friday Agreement a few years later?

Standing by at genocides in Africa because they have no oil.

How much oil did the Bosnians have? How many troops did the UK send to Africa to fight genocide? After all, it's European colonialism that made Africa the [feces]hole it is today, shouldn't you have stepped up and taken some responsibility instead of crying for Uncle Sam to do something about your mess?

Continuing to support Israel even after they used banned weapons (white phosphorus) to bomb and murder Gaza civilians and supporting the Israeli invasion of Palestinian territory.

White phosphorous is not a bomb, it's an artillery marker. As a weapon it's next to useless. And you're another one of those people who thinks Israel has no right to defend itself, or claim that they do have that right it's just that every time they do it's wrong for some reason? But I guess that's what you learn when you frequent anti-semitic hate sites like Rense.com.

Condemning religious fundamentalists elsewhere while supporting their own. All that without even mentioning events in South America.

Excuse me?

It's probably not all the fault of US citizens. The education seems to be slanted in several areas and the news there doesn't seem to have much time for much international reporting.

Quite ironic considering the ignorant rant you just engaged in.

Several Americans on JREF have made it clear that they have had a biased education, maybe that happens a lot? Quite a few don't understand that socially aware policies don't equal communism. One guy said he was taught that the USA pretty much won WWII and he only found out later that the Allies had all been fighting the Nazis for two years before the USA turned up. Another flamed me in a PM to say how much they have 'sacrificed' for 'many other countries' and referred to WWII and being proud that Americans have 'sacrificed hundreds of thousand of our countrymen for the good of the world'. She didn't seem to know that 16 million allied military personnel, from more than 20 countries, made the ultimate sacrifice in WWII, and the majority weren't Americans.

Yes, we were reluctant to get involved with the regular tribal spats that engulf the oh-so-enlightened Europeans every few decades. But hey, Europe has been genocide-free for 15 years now! That's progress I guess.

I really try hard not to blame individuals, I know everyone is different, and there are many, many highly intelligent and open minded Americans here on JREF who are worldly wise. I'm just sad for the USA as a whole. As I've said elsewhere, the USA could be such a power for good in the world, it has done a lot of good, but it could do a lot more and be a truly awesome world leader, instead it seems to prefer the role of a backward redneck.

Yeah, Europe has such a wonderful track record! Tell us stupid rednecks how to behave.

 

[WildCat]

Joolz, why do read the anti-semitic hate site Rense.com?

 

[JihadJane]

You should have put a nausea warning on this! The first photo in the link is vomit inducing. Almost as bad as the one of a smiling Brown shaking hands with Th*tch*r at Downing Street.

They're all in it together!

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Joolz, why do read the anti-semitic hate site Rense.com?

That's an unfair characterization.

Jeff Rense hates extra-terrestrials just as much as he hates jews.

 

[Rolfe]

You should have put a nausea warning on this! The first photo in the link is vomit inducing. Almost as bad as the one of a smiling Brown shaking hands with Th*tch*r at Downing Street.

You mean the one that won the SNP the Glasgow East by-election?

Rolfe.

 

[Virus]

Funding the Taliban at one point as they were 'resistance fighters', then deciding they were 'terrorists' after all.

Lie. The US supported the Mujahedin to contain the Soviet Union which had invaded Afghanistan. The Taliban did not exist in 1979. The Mujahedin then split up after the Soviets left into various factions, one of which was the Taliban.

 

[WildCat]

Lie. The US supported the Mujahedin to contain the Soviet Union which had invaded Afghanistan. The Taliban did not exist in 1979. The Mujahedin then split up after the Soviets left into various factions, one of which was the Taliban.

Jeff Rense claims the US supported the Taliban in the 1990s!

He also believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is factual.

But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that someone who went off on an anti-Israel tangent in a thread that wasn't about Israel cited the anti-semitic hate site Rense.com as a source. Nope, no red flags at all raised in that post!

 

[Rolfe]

Better find a different link, Joolz.

Rolfe.

 

[WildCat]

Better find a different link, Joolz.

Rolfe.

Good luck finding another source for that claim.

 

[Virus]

Check out Joolz's signature.

 

[Giz]

I don't think we can expect the USA to make a sensible judgement on this. We've known for years that, as a nation, the USA is quite fickle about who it supports. Funding the Taliban at one point as they were 'resistance fighters', then deciding they were 'terrorists' after all.

Yeah, the US supported the "lesser evil" against the "greater evil". Kinda like lend-lease to Stalin in WW2 (i.e. there is a long history of this, and sometimes it is justified).

Continuing to support Israel even after they used banned weapons (white phosphorus) to bomb and murder Gaza civilians and supporting the Israeli invasion of Palestinian territory.

Firstly, using white phosphorus as a marker isn't banned.

Secondly, "murder Gaza civilians and supporting the Israeli invasion"???. Just to remind you:
A) The Israelis went in after thousands of rocket attacks were made against them, not just because they wanted to screw around.
B) They tried to avoid civilian casualties wherever possible (see British officers testimony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kemp#Testimony_on_the_Gaza_War )
C) Even though Hamas tried to use children as shields, it appears that three-quarters of casualties were militants. The quarter that weren't… I'd say they were morally the fault of Hamas for having incited the operation with all of the rocket strikes (would any country not retaliate to thousands of rockets being fired at its civilians?) and then forcing civilians to act as human shields.

Condemning religious fundamentalists elsewhere while supporting their own.

I'm sorry, did you mean: "Condemning violent religious fundamentalists elsewhere while supporting their own non-violent religious types" ?

It's probably not all the fault of US citizens. The education seems to be slanted in several areas and the news there doesn't seem to have much time for much international reporting.

FWIW, my impression (as a Brit in the US who has swapped school stories with many - non flag waving - US friends) is that schooling in Alabama and Georgia sounds better than schooling in Croydon…

I really try hard not to blame individuals, I know everyone is different, and there are many, many highly intelligent and open minded Americans here on JREF who are worldly wise. I'm just sad for the USA as a whole. As I've said elsewhere, the USA could be such a power for good in the world, it has done a lot of good, but it could do a lot more and be a truly awesome world leader, instead it seems to prefer the role of a backward redneck.

I defy you to find a major power, in all of history, that has been half as restrained, generous, done as much good (or refrained from so much bad) as the USA. Compared to how every other nation has behaved during their moment of power, the USA has been nothing short of saintly.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I don't think it can be denied that western governments aren't always exactly choosy about their allies. Being an enemy of an enemy is often good enough and political manoeuvring often trumps ethical concerns.

 

[joolz]

Rense.com? Seriously?

Rense.com was only one of several sites that have that info, I had never been to that site before today, but I can share the other links I found if you like?

And didn't that lead directly to the Good Friday Agreement a few years later?

Gosh, so you're saying that getting the IRA to bomb us gives you credit for that success? Is there no end to US magnanimity? I guess I should kiss Uncle Sam's feet in thanks for the terrorism he inflicted!

How much oil did the Bosnians have? How many troops did the UK send to Africa to fight genocide? After all, it's European colonialism that made Africa the [feces]hole it is today, shouldn't you have stepped up and taken some responsibility instead of crying for Uncle Sam to do something about your mess?

Please quote where I said that the UK are blameless? Our PMs are often the lapdog for the US president so why would you expect me to defend them?

White phosphorous is not a bomb, it's an artillery marker. As a weapon it's next to useless. And you're another one of those people who thinks Israel has no right to defend itself, or claim that they do have that right it's just that every time they do it's wrong for some reason? But I guess that's what you learn when you frequent anti-semitic hate sites like Rense.com.

Please explain why you feel that condemning one group's actions must mean you support their opponents? Is everything so clearly decided in your life? No grey areas? And don't play semantics to avoid the issue and white phosphorus is most certainly not harmless. They dropped white phosphorus on Gaza as they bombed it. That has been proven. They eventually agreed not to do it again, so they know it was wrong.

Please quote where I said that Israel are not allowed to defend themselves? If your beliefs are all black or white then presumably you feel the Palestinians don't have the right to defend themselves? Why not? Why shouldn't the Palestinians drop white phosphorous on the illegal Israeli settlements? That would be more justifiable than Israelis harming civilians. And don't jump to the conclusion that I'd suppport this, as I wouldn't.

I don't frequent Rense.com. I saw a website quoting 'The Guardian'. If I had frequented the site I probably would have realised they weren't referring to the UK Guardian paper. I have never said anything anti-Semitic in my life, primarily because I'm not an anti-Semite. I remembered reading in the papers how the Taliban had had US money and weapons a while back and I just picked a link that referred to it as an example. Is everyone who criticises an Israeli action an anti-semite in your opinoin?

Excuse me?

You need evidence that there are US religious fundamentalists? Look around.

Quite ironic considering the ignorant rant you just engaged in.

I was quoting Americans. Should I have assumed they were lying?

Yes, we were reluctant to get involved with the regular tribal spats that engulf the oh-so-enlightened Europeans every few decades. But hey, Europe has been genocide-free for 15 years now! That's progress I guess.

If only you weren't as keen to get into other 'tribal spats' either <sigh>

Yeah, Europe has such a wonderful track record!

Where did I say it does?

Tell us stupid rednecks how to behave.

That's your job, not ours. We don't claim to be the world police.

 

[joolz]

Lie. The US supported the Mujahedin to contain the Soviet Union which had invaded Afghanistan. The Taliban did not exist in 1979. The Mujahedin then split up after the Soviets left into various factions, one of which was the Taliban.

Ah I see.

Supporting the Mujahedin incorporating the terrorist Taliban = good

Supporting the legally elected Palestinian Government which is Hammas = bad.

Doublethink!

 

[joolz]

Jeff Rense claims the US supported the Taliban in the 1990s!

He also believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is factual.

But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that someone who went off on an anti-Israel tangent in a thread that wasn't about Israel cited the anti-semitic hate site Rense.com as a source. Nope, no red flags at all raised in that post!

It wasn't an anti-Israel tangent. It was replying to andyandy about Galloway's donations to the Palestinian Government and how the US seems to have an odd way of deciding who is a terrorist and who isn't. Therefore on topic.

It wasn't even anti-Israel. I have been to Israel and seen Jerusalem for myself. My father was involved there when he was in the Royal Marines. Don't make invalid assumptions.

The info about Rense.com was news to me, I concede it was a bad choice to quote, which I would have known if I was were the kind of person you claim.

Criticism is not the same as bigotry. You made some strong comments about many countries in your post, but I don't assume you are therefore anti-Italy, anti-Spain etc. Please do me the same courtesy.