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On top of completely missing the explanation when asking for an explanation, I would consider that silly move akin to trying to hide the goal posts under a paper napkin. Do you have any proof Mr. Chazan's article, published in the Wall Street Journal April 15, is a work of fiction?

"Libya has gone from the world's most exciting oil-exploration hot spot in 2005 to another geologically, politically and fiscally risky also-ran," says Charles Gurdon, a North Africa expert at Menas Associates, a consultancy.

It seems to me that the Arab spring damaged oil interests to a considerable degree.

McHrozni
 
I said training, not degree.

Why do you avoid the subject of your own thread? I'm asking what makes one "Gaddafi's useful idiot."

so like your took training in a tech school or something?
wow..i've never met an 'apprentice historian' before.
what is first year apprentice historian training?...learning to read?

how do you become a 'journeyman historian'?
 
bikerdruid, please do your homework. Burma has non trivial petroleum resources. They have the good, or bad, fortune to be within the Chinese sphere of influence. The Chinese are interested in that resource development, for their own reasons.

On that score, your sarcasm (last page, in re why nobody was going after Burma or North Korea) was wasted.


I am still a bit amazed, and not really amused, that the Mad Colonel was, on a moment's notice, deemed persona and regime non grata, in particular by his neighbors in the Arab world. Without the "legitimacy" of their appeal to the UN for assistance, I don't think the operation could have gotten the political fig leaf of UN sanction.

Why the French have such a hard on for him still puzzles me.
 
Oh my God. Look, guys ... I managed to lose my financial aid before getting a degree. I couldn't pay for the rest myself. It's not the most useful degree anyway, but in the training you learn things like looking for primary sources, recognizing bias, etc. It's nothing fancy and I wasn't trying to claim any expertise, just explaining to Funky why I don't find relying solely on news casts to be adequate. ESPECIALLY in a situation like this.

McH: No, the problems cited were unfolding in 2008 and so, not after the Arab Spring.

If anyone can get past this stupid little phase and deal with the issues, would be appreciated. Virus is slightly on it.

I gave examples and posted an article from Tablet.

Fair enough. When I have some time, maybe I'll go back and discern the patterns. I suspect your reason for calling them idiots is mostly disagreeing with your impression of things, but maybe there's some specific, quantifiable idiocy involved.

Bikerdruid, where are you trying to go here? Do you think this is a humanitarian war, or one driven by material motives?

I won't be back for at least 24 hours - small road trip. So no rush. Thanks all for an enlightening conversation so far.
 
I wish I knew what Gadaffi had actually done, as opposed to what was blamed on him because it was politically expedient.

Rolfe.
 
I wish I knew what Gadaffi had actually done, as opposed to what was blamed on him because it was politically expedient.

Rolfe.

gadaffi is a loon, but a generous loon, or was.
i don't believe that he ever was, in any form a saviour or a hero, however, he has given billions to african relief.
i know several people who have worked in libya over the years, in the oil patch.
all have said that libya was a welcoming, fairly modern and progressive nation.
their standard of living was quite high.

although he is showing his very ugly side to the world, he did not do so just on a whim.
i don't understand what is going on now, or the motivations that brought it all about.
i believe now, that he has to be taken out. we stirred up the hornet's next, and have left very little choice.
 
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Fair enough. When I have some time, maybe I'll go back and discern the patterns. I suspect your reason for calling them idiots is mostly disagreeing with your impression of things, but maybe there's some specific, quantifiable idiocy involved.

Primer on Useful Idiots;



 
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Oh my God. Look, guys ... I managed to lose my financial aid before getting a degree. I couldn't pay for the rest myself. It's not the most useful degree anyway, but in the training you learn things like looking for primary sources, recognizing bias, etc.

Sue them to get the money back. They did an extremely poor job.

McH: No, the problems cited were unfolding in 2008 and so, not after the Arab Spring.

I'm not buying the subscription to get the article. Why don't you cite something I can get for free? If it was obvious it should be everywhere, no?

McHrozni
 
i don't believe that he ever was, in any form a saviour or a hero, however, he has given billions to african relief.

Relief to ensure political survival of several strongmen, who are now trying hard to save him through the AU. Hardly something worthy of any humanitarian awards ... or praise ... or anything other than condemnation if we're at it.

McHrozni
 
I suspect your reason for calling them idiots is mostly disagreeing with your impression of things, but maybe there's some specific, quantifiable idiocy involved.

Haha you've hit the nail on the head. This is actually a widespread form of argumentation and you can see it very easily within a few demographics. Now this is not to slander anyone in this thread or compare them to truthers as an argumentative tactic, but it is interesting to see this commonly on their side of the fence too.

In my innumerable debates with truthers after a long back and forth and explaining that, no, I really am NOT working for the NWO, they'll fall back - very commonly - to suggesting that even if I am not a conscious agent of the NWO, the arguments I employed are signs that I am in effect, supporting the NWO and aiding the cause of evil unwittingly. I am so duped by their mischievous arguments, by ideology, by my "Rothschild approved" education, that I am really just as bad as a conscious agent of the NWO because my arguments are so, ummm... useful to them..;)

Now see this is the basic definition of useful idiot: someone who is unknowingly aiding and abetting the enemy. This goes back to the red scare days and has the most currency on the anti-communist right and their descendants though it has entered the vernacular such that it can be employed by most anybody.

I have never found cause to think the term or use it in actual discussion. Even if I did think that was true about someone, saying it to an actual "useful idiot" would achieve nothing: the basic definition of a useful idiot is that they are so hopelessly duped by propaganda and ideology that they cannot truly appreciate reality (the reality that they are helping Evil People). So, how could one actually argue with a real "useful idiot"?

Therefore, you'll see it more regularly in a back-slapping fashion directed to people in the audience on the same team, who will understand the code words and see it as a bit of an inside joke for their side. Its nice cause its a good barbed weapon: it castigates the target as an idiot who doesn't even know he's helping Evil, and it helps bring the team together at the same time.

Furthermore, I think if we were to comb the board here we'd find it employed most frequently by the most strident and obviously emotional posters. Those that are most vehemently against something - and those who are eager to demonstrate just how much they are against something will use it most often. It is for this reason that I believe the term is nearly the exclusive property of the Manicheans - those whose outlook is a binary view of Good and Evil. It is these individuals who get most upset arguing about politics and who live with closed-circle worldviews that operate as giant sorting machines, putting everything into two buckets: those who are on my side, and those who are against me.

Confronted with difficult arguments, or simply ones identified as belonging to the other team, the lazy people falling into some of the dispositions I've mentioned above will drop the "useful idiot" meme.

It's a great way to stop discussion. Now identified as a useful idiot, why would they listen to anything I have to say? My view is so hopelessly confused. For me its a signifier that someone is pretty emotionally committed to their view, and to tread carefully, probably better just to seek discussion with others who might have the patience to hear me out without satisfying a compulsive need to identify me as "enemy" or "friend".

What I find kind of interesting about Virus though, is he is very eager to accuse someone of active support of his enemies (whether that be Gaddafi here, or Hizbullah, Saddam elsewhere). Don't forget Virus there's more tools in your toolbox! You can always accuse somebody of unknowingly supporting the cause of Evil! They don't HAVE to be active supporters!

After all you started the OP with "useful idiots" to begin with I'd like to see more diversity!
 
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I am still a bit amazed, and not really amused, that the Mad Colonel was, on a moment's notice, deemed persona and regime non grata, in particular by his neighbors in the Arab world. Without the "legitimacy" of their appeal to the UN for assistance, I don't think the operation could have gotten the political fig leaf of UN sanction.

Why the French have such a hard on for him still puzzles me.

Both very interesting questions I have thoughts about, but not for here.

I wish I knew what Gadaffi had actually done, as opposed to what was blamed on him because it was politically expedient.

Rolfe.

Thanks for that. It's just wise to remember we now know that what he's said to have ordered and what's actually happened are completely at odds in at least one, very high-profile case. That being Pan Am 103, of course.

It's simply not an idiotic thing to, for example, wonder if that's happened more than once, or is happening now.

although he is showing his very ugly side to the world, he did not do so just on a whim.
i don't understand what is going on now, or the motivations that brought it all about.
i believe now, that he has to be taken out. we stirred up the hornet's next, and have left very little choice.

Two ways to deal with having whacked a hornet's nest - stop, run away in the literal version, negotiate and such in this one, and hope that reason wins out- any sting would finalize he coffin-nailing.

And of course the type of sting feared, aside from Gaddafi's odd threats, is another Pan Am 103, basically. I'm sure it wold be.

Anyway, the soft approach has been ruled out by those who do these things, in favor of the second option - whack the nest harder, no let-up, until all the hornets capable of stinging are dead. I'm a bit saddened to see you taking that view as well.

Virus said:
"We" didn't stir it up. [Certain, rather colorful] Libyans did [as] they [claimed with still no credible evidence that they] were bombed and killed for protesting a Stalinist regime [but really shot in the process of stealing weapons to broaden their struggle into a full civil war.]
FTFY. Agreed, with edits. "We" are just doing the whacking for them. They're very grateful to Mr. Sarkozy and Mr. Obama. The prez just doesn't want to be caught without escort in a Benghazi alleyway at night...

I'm not buying the subscription to get the article. Why don't you cite something I can get for free? If it was obvious it should be everywhere, no?
The link I gave to a re-posting that's available for free. That's why I used that instead of a verifiably primary source. It's a small gamble that's usually worth it. Either way, do you have any evidence that the article is fiction-based? Is the growing rift between Tripoli and big oil that preceded the civil war made-up nonsense, or does Chazan maybe have a point? Just how big the point is is another issue - first, is it even a valid observation?

If not, why not?

I'll come back to the posts about useful Idiocy. Up front, thanks, Praktik, for a very helpful post. Virus, I'll watch the vids next.
 
Video 1 suggests useful idiots usually are personally flattered by the despots, and they will be duped or even lie "to gain advantage." Virus also has the add-on that they must be serving a "fascist" leader. I don't think any of these seem absolutely necessary, but the general idea seems clear enough.

Not to contend the basic points made, which are valid, but I think I spot some bias in these presentations. It's largely based on the moral basis that the governments praised by the UIs commit mass murder. Part 2 @ 3:00 sites Mao's "murderous mismanagement" for the famine of 59-61. If it were mismanagement that killed them, would that be murder, really?

Haha you've hit the nail on the head.

Thanks. It's rare I'll get an acknowledgment of that.

In my innumerable debates with truthers after a long back and forth and explaining that, no, I really am NOT working for the NWO, they'll fall back - very commonly - to suggesting that even if I am not a conscious agent of the NWO, the arguments I employed are signs that I am in effect, supporting the NWO and aiding the cause of evil unwittingly.
And if they were right, you would be, of course. But I take your point - it seems like a truther and nutter tactic, but it's a wider problem really.

... you'll see it more regularly in a back-slapping fashion directed to people in the audience on the same team, who will understand the code words and see it as a bit of an inside joke for their side. Its nice cause its a good barbed weapon: it castigates the target as an idiot who doesn't even know he's helping Evil, and it helps bring the team together at the same time.

You've given this more thought than I have, or just run into it way more.

It's a great way to stop discussion. Now identified as a useful idiot, why would they listen to anything I have to say? My view is so hopelessly confused. For me its a signifier that someone is pretty emotionally committed to their view, and to tread carefully, probably better just to seek discussion with others who might have the patience to hear me out without satisfying a compulsive need to identify me as "enemy" or "friend".

What I find kind of interesting about Virus though, is he is very eager to accuse someone of active support of his enemies (whether that be Gaddafi here, or Hizbullah, Saddam elsewhere). Don't forget Virus there's more tools in your toolbox! You can always accuse somebody of unknowingly supporting the cause of Evil! They don't HAVE to be active supporters!

After all you started the OP with "useful idiots" to begin with I'd like to see more diversity!

That's why it seems appropriate you have rational euro-pop, hippie-movie robots for your avatar, and he's got a crusader knight, previously a storm-trooper-like thing. He's noted that I'm suspiciously supportive of Gaddafi - I should be honored he hasn't yet called me a useful idiot and went straight to knowing agent.

For my part, I didn't mean to call Virus a useful idiot for NATO, just wanted to suggest maybe he should consider the material his own house is made from when hurling such terminology around.

(also, does a useful idiot have to be in a minority within the society the live in, like the West's Stalin supporters? Could Soviet citizens be useful idiots for the same support in far more relevant concentrations?)
 
What would you call left wing then?

I'm considered to be pretty left wing in the UK (supporting actual Socialist parties rather than lunatics who say they are Socialist) and thus for the US, I'm exceptionally left wing.

I'm old Labour. Old old Labour. Atlee-was-the-best-Prime-Minister-ever old Labour. If that's not pretty damn left wing I'd like to know what is. Pro-tip though, any political party or organisation with "workers" or "socialist" in the name is normally Communist. Communism is...ridiculously naive to say the least.

You said "very left wing" (not just left wing), which I associate with revolutionary politics - i.e. replacing the system rather than tinkering with it. I also notice you say nothing about class struggle.
 

Thanks. Indeed, telling.

At the same time, companies that had made such expensive commitments in Libya'sEPSA-IV licensing rounds were facing a big problem: there was little oil. Firms drilled nearly 600 wells in Libya from 2006 to 2009 and made just 27 oil discoveries, mostly small, according todata from the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries.

While probably not based on fiction, it's also a fact that the article clearly states that Quackdaffi and his quacky state was only part of the problem.

McHrozni
 

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