fundie atheist?

[ravdin]

A 14 year old girl and her father are filing a federal lawsuit challenging a mandated period of silence at the beginning of the day in Illinois public schools.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-10-26-moment-of-silence_N.htm

Personally (and as another proud atheist), I disagree with the suit. I don't see the harm in a brief moment of silence, where you can pray to Jesus, Allah, Buddha or (*gasp*) not pray at all. We observed a moment of silence at my school and somehow, they failed to indoctrinate me and several of my fellow students. No doubt it is also a relief for the teachers to get the kids to be quiet for a minute or two.

I also fail to see why this complaint should take it up with the federal government. No specific religion or sect is given preference here. And his whining to the contrary, he and other nonbelievers in the state of Illinois are not relegated to second class citizenship.

I think this lawsuit is a stunt and brings the wrong kind of attention to the nonreligious among us. Aren't we supposed to be more open minded and tolerant than everyone else?

 

[JoeEllison]

The call for being "open minded" is almost never useful or appropriate.

Also, what part of "Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act" confused you?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Some people are not happy if they are not being victimised.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Also, what part of "Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act" confused you?

What part confused you? The Act is in two sections, one covering silent reflection, the other covering voluntary student-led prayer. The student prayer portion of the Act is not even in question in this lawsuit.

...students in the public schools may voluntarily engage in individually initiated, non‑disruptive prayer that, consistent with the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses of the United States and Illinois Constitutions, is not sponsored, promoted, or endorsed in any manner by the school or any school employee.

Source; This is the original Act, before the amendment which prompted this lawsuit. The amendment changed the word may in the first sentence of Section 1 to shall.

 

[ravdin]

Changing the word may to shall? The Feds must put a stop to this outrage!

I'm unclear on the reasons for the semantic update, but to me the key words are "voluntary" and "non-disruptive"- i.e. you can voluntarily talk to your imaginary friend, or at least not disrupt your fellow student for a couple of minutes.

 

[KingMerv00]

Changing the word may to shall? The Feds must put a stop to this outrage!

Whether or not you agree with the law there is a world of legal difference between "may" and "shall".

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I'm unclear on the reasons for the semantic update, but to me the key words are "voluntary" and "non-disruptive"- i.e. you can voluntarily talk to your imaginary friend, or at least not disrupt your fellow student for a couple of minutes.

The lawsuit has nothing to do with the second section. The issue is the first, which reads

In each public school classroom the teacher in charge shall observe a brief period of silence with the participation of all the pupils therein assembled at the opening of every school day. This period shall not be conducted as a religious exercise but shall be an opportunity for silent prayer or for silent reflection on the anticipated activities of the day.

It used to say ...may observe.... Now, teachers are required to hold a brief period of silence each morning. The silence may be used for prayer or reflection (or fantasizing about the teacher), but it is now required. Some people take moments of silence as inherently religious in nature (the practice certainly has its roots in religion) and therefore inappropriate for a state-run school.

I think some people's panties are too easily bunched. [shrug]

I also find it amusing that he has named as a defendant the governor who vetoed the amendment.

 

[mumchup]

I stopped going to the monthly meeting of the local atheist group because they have what I would consider an extreme attitude. Any hint of religion/god in any public setting gets them all agitated. It doesn't even have to directly involve government, "in public" is close enough to get them in a tizzy. They are currently waging a letter to the editor campaign to get Sunday church bells classified as illegal noise pollution.
I have a problem with congressional sessions being opened with a religious invocation but I can't see the point in complaining about a moment of silence. I'll save my ire for the instances where the teacher is reading a prayer to the class.

 

[bignickel]

What am I hearing? These people get their thinly disguised moment of prayer enforced in the schools, and if we don't like it, we're the ones with too much time on our hands?

"I don't have time for this #&*#(&" is exactly what many of us think as fundies once again take their latest baby step to theocracy. I supposed that some here think that ID in the schools had nothing to do with religion either? I mean, no mention of god/s anywhere in the current material, right?

 

[mumchup]

Well, at least here in Connecticut*, it's taking a very looong time for them to implement step 2 of operation take-over-the-schools because we've had a moment of silence for more than 25 years.


*note: I have no idea if it was state or federal moment of silence when I was a kid.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

What am I hearing? These people get their thinly disguised moment of prayer enforced in the schools, and if we don't like it, we're the ones with too much time on our hands?

Where did anyone say anything about too much time on anybody's hands?

"I don't have time for this #&*#(&" is exactly what many of us think as fundies once again take their latest baby step to theocracy. I supposed that some here think that ID in the schools had nothing to do with religion either? I mean, no mention of god/s anywhere in the current material, right?

I'm surprised your strawman kept his footing on such a slippery slope.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, at least here in Connecticut*, it's taking a very looong time for them to implement step 2 of operation take-over-the-schools because we've had a moment of silence for more than 25 years.


*note: I have no idea if it was state or federal moment of silence when I was a kid.

You had a moment of silence at the beginning of every school day?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Can't people have moments of silence on their own time? The school day already isn't long enough to actually teach everything they're supposed to. Oh well, carve out another minute and flush that time away. Not like most of those kids are going to amount to anything, anyway.

The thing that confuses me about school prayer is that people, religious, devout, God-loving people, apparently wish to wait til they get to school to pray. I guess the rest of the day is dedicated to secular hedonism, and they don't want to cut into that.

 

[tsg]

Can someone can explain the legitimate secular purpose for having a mandatory moment of silence?

 

[annexw]

Can someone can explain the legitimate secular purpose for having a mandatory moment of silence?

It teaches children to be silent and still for a change? Gives Teacher a moment to take attendance? Calms them down before the learning begins?

I don't know what the law-makers were thinking, but all of those work for me in a secular way.

We stood at our desks and sang O Canada every Monday morning and God Save the Queen every Friday morning. I see this as something similar, but perhaps some would take issue with God Save the Queen.

 

[KingMerv00]

Can't people have moments of silence on their own time? The school day already isn't long enough to actually teach everything they're supposed to. Oh well, carve out another minute and flush that time away. Not like most of those kids are going to amount to anything, anyway.

The thing that confuses me about school prayer is that people, religious, devout, God-loving people, apparently wish to wait til they get to school to pray. I guess the rest of the day is dedicated to secular hedonism, and they don't want to cut into that.

Better yet, can I save up my moments? If I decide to work that extra minute every school day, can I get out of class 3 hours early at the end of the year?

1 min x 180 school days = 3 hours

 

[chulbert]

Whether or not you agree with the law there is a world of legal difference between "may" and "shall".

I'm no legal eagle, and I would normally agree with you, but what's the difference between "may voluntarily" and "shall voluntarily"? Seriously... what's the difference between a mandatory expression of one's right to volunteer and, uh, a voluntary expression of one's right to volunteer?

 

[KingMerv00]

Here is what Marquis cited in its entiety:

105 ILCS 20/0.01) (from Ch. 122, par. 770)
Sec. 0.01. Short title. This Act may be cited as the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act.
(Source: P.A. 92‑832, eff. 1‑1‑03.)

(105 ILCS 20/1) (from Ch. 122, par. 771)
Sec. 1.
In each public school classroom the teacher in charge may observe a brief period of silence with the participation of all the pupils therein assembled at the opening of every school day. This period shall not be conducted as a religious exercise but shall be an opportunity for silent prayer or for silent reflection on the anticipated activities of the day.
(Source: P. A. 76‑21.)


(105 ILCS 20/5)
Sec. 5. Student prayer. In order that the right of every student to the free exercise of religion is guaranteed within the public schools and that each student has the freedom to not be subject to pressure from the State either to engage in or to refrain from religious observation on public school grounds, students in the public schools may voluntarily engage in individually initiated, non‑disruptive prayer that, consistent with the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses of the United States and Illinois Constitutions, is not sponsored, promoted, or endorsed in any manner by the school or any school employee.
(Source: P.A. 92‑832, eff. 1‑1‑03.)

Bolding mine.

Which "may" was changed to "shall"? I suspect the second because the first is just silly and the third doesn't make any sense.

 

[tsg]

It teaches children to be silent and still for a change? Gives Teacher a moment to take attendance? Calms them down before the learning begins?

Except that the law doesn't mention these as the reasons for it, but does mention prayer.

I don't know what the law-makers were thinking, but all of those work for me in a secular way.

I think it's pretty obvious what they were thinking.

We stood at our desks and sang O Canada every Monday morning and God Save the Queen every Friday morning. I see this as something similar, but perhaps some would take issue with God Save the Queen.

The laws are different in Canada.

 

[tsg]

Which "may" was changed to "shall"? I suspect the second because the first is just silly and the third doesn't make any sense.

From the article [bolding mine]:

An Illinois law called the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act already allowed schools to observe a moment of silence if they wanted. A new measure changed just a single word: "may" observe became "shall" observe.

That makes it pretty clear it was the second one.