Fundamentalism Blows

[The GM]

Wow! Lots of good stuff popped up while I was out. I’d like to address some of it.

Michelle (I hope that’s your name, I think I read someone else refer to you that way. If I’m wrong or you’d prefer I address you by your handle, tell me!) was talking about the RR board. I am very familiar with this brand of fundy thought; it’s close to what I grew up in. I admit, once a year on Mother’s Day, I go back to this kind of church out of respect for me mum. At first, this was torture for me. I didn’t want to see these kinds of people, shake hands with them, or hear what they had to say. Now I can do this and not feel that old pressure. Mostly what I witness is an environment that is filled with fear: Fear of God, Fear of the Apocalypse, Fear of going to Hell. I can’t make myself be afraid and I try to set an example of what it’s like to *not* be afraid of God. It’s a better life on this side of the fence. Maybe being a good example is an answer? I dunno. You’ve been over at RR. What do you think?

Eos, who has the coolest damn avatar I’ve seen here, talked a bit about whether one is born w/ fundy tendencies or not. Good question. I have two other siblings, so three kids growing up in the household. Sibling number 1 has the fundy leanings we grew up learning about. Sibling number 2 is moderate and laid back in belief (could have something to do w/ his very gorgeous and somewhat religious SO, though.) I am the black sheep, constantly questioning, always looking for answers. Also, I would add that situational circumstances can fuel fundamentalism. For instance, we had two cases of nearly fatal, chronic illness in our family. I have no doubt our church habits would have been different had we all been healthy. Again, fear feeding fear.

Jar and Fordama chatted a bit about fundamentalism vs fanaticism. I posted the definitions I found at dictionary.com for each word. Fanatics don’t require a religion (ever been to a MLM meeting? Then you know what I mean. J ) Fundamentalism can be a channel through which fanaticism moves, but so can lots of things, kinda like the example Atlas brought up about smokers. Speaking of Atlas, he talked about the ‘terrain of discussion.’ While this is a bit different from his earlier posts in which he said you can’t reason w/ fundies, I’d be interested in seeing what else he has to say on the subject, like if he’s done this, how he opened the discussion, where it led, etc…(If you’re willing, of course. If not, you’re 100% free to tell me to buggar off. )

Graham said, “Dump the crap and keep the good bits, in other words.”
An excellent piece of advice and can apply to many areas of life, I’m sure!

Critical thinking ain’t easy. Screw it; I’m joining evil dave’s purple squiddy worship. ;D

 

[MLynn]

Michelle (I hope that’s your name, I think I read someone else refer to you that way. If I’m wrong or you’d prefer I address you by your handle, tell me!) was talking about the RR board. I am very familiar with this brand of fundy thought; it’s close to what I grew up in. I admit, once a year on Mother’s Day, I go back to this kind of church out of respect for me mum. At first, this was torture for me. I didn’t want to see these kinds of people, shake hands with them, or hear what they had to say. Now I can do this and not feel that old pressure. Mostly what I witness is an environment that is filled with fear: Fear of God, Fear of the Apocalypse, Fear of going to Hell. I can’t make myself be afraid and I try to set an example of what it’s like to *not* be afraid of God. It’s a better life on this side of the fence. Maybe being a good example is an answer? I dunno. You’ve been over at RR. What do you think?

Although my name isn't Michelle, I like it - it can be your pet name for me if you like. I've only gone to the RR board a little because, well, the threads are very "fundie" and banal. Some of the people are well-meaning but biblically, well, ignorant. Oh dear, I'm digging myself into a hole...there must be other christian
forums that are more moderate than RR. I don't like the "let them burn" attitude, and everyone who doesn't share THEIR dogmas is a troll, blah, blah. It drives me nuts. I like it here - sure, Triadboy asks tough questions that I can't answer, but he said I could stay as long as I bring the chips! What kind should I bring?

 

[The GM]

Although my name isn't Michelle, I like it - it can be your pet name for me if you like. (snip) Triadboy asks tough questions that I can't answer, but he said I could stay as long as I bring the chips! What kind should I bring?

Oh dear! Well, if I'm going to give you a pet name, it's certainly going to be more glamorous than Michelle. Sorry 'bout the confusion.
As for the chips, best not be any of those diet kind. Salty cardboard gets a definite thumbs down from The GM.
As for the RR people, yeah, I understand what you're saying. It can be easier *not* to deal with that kind of view.

 

[Atlas]

Fundamentalism can be a channel through which fanaticism moves, but so can lots of things, kinda like the example Atlas brought up about smokers. Speaking of Atlas, he talked about the ‘terrain of discussion.’ While this is a bit different from his earlier posts in which he said you can’t reason w/ fundies, I’d be interested in seeing what else he has to say on the subject, like if he’s done this, how he opened the discussion, where it led, etc

I believe the comments from my earlier post that are being referred to are these snippets from my first post in this thread.
<blockquote>And to be honest, you can't really reason with fundies. Faith is something that is virtually unassailable by logic....

Actually trying to reason with fundies and Jihadists puts them on the same level as rational beings. </blockquote>I made a mistake in pushing all fundamentalists into the unreasonable group that also includes fanatics. While the continuum of human thought spans through emotionless rationality to the emotion laden and fear and anger driven thought processes of the irrational Jihadist, almost everyone's thought floats, in some regard, on a sea of emotion.

From our own perspective we do not admit the emotional component, but believe our own clarity of thought was the result of simple truth revealing itself to the prepared mind.

But our own emotional component is revealed when we talk to fundamentalists who rise easily into the heat of argument and engage us in the frustrating battle we all know.

In order to navigate the "terrain" common to the believer and the nonbeliever we must admit the emotional sea churns beneath us and seek to elevate the discussion off that sea and into the more airy reaches of rational thought.

I have 2 siblings and a parent who ascribe to somewhat different flavors of Christian fundamentalism. My brother is a young earth creationist type, an elder in his church. My Mom is devoutly Catholic, and my sister is kind of a love of Jesus evangelical.

They are all good people and would do what they could to help me if I ever was in need. I have challenged them up front and personal but withered as I witnessed the surge of emotion I inflamed. I have over the years adopted a different strategy that allows me to disagree with their assertions that the Lord is the answer when we are together and in discussions with my many other siblings.

This involves nothing more that validating their positions and stroking their egos prior to presenting an alternative. In my last post I alluded to the filter through which we perceive our world. Validation is best done using that filter.

For instance, if they say you must have faith, you can retort that you understand that Abraham had Faith when he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him. You can work any angle of that story to make your point for the situation at hand. Preachers twist lessons out of these stories all the time. They pass through the filters easily.

But the main way to retain a high ground is to be so well versed that you can adopt a Socratic approach and through a series of statements and questions lead the believer where he will not go if you merely tell him to go there.

That is, raise a Bible story that you know they know about, referencing a current real life situation, and ask them to tell the story and how it relates. This validates them and their belief. It forces them out of their current prejudiced thought pattern and introduces other variables. But all the while doing so in a comforting set of symbols that they are familiar with.

This works very well with my Mom and my evangelical sister whose first thought is God and who seldom delve much deeper. My brother, being an elder, uses the technique, with a lot of preaching, himself. He usually knows when he's being manuvered and will steer to a different quote or story. When it's my turn though, I can bring it back and make him answer. We both know what we're doing and can laugh about it and accuse one another of it without giving offense. As long as I approach them within their own symbols, stories and comfort zone I can then get at inconsistencies in the Ressurection, Heaven and Hell, good and evil, science and religion, and liars and frauds. There is some remarkable agreement. There is still a lot of disagreement but we part amicably both believing there may be hope for the other after all.

Someone like you, GM, who was raised hearing all the stories, the lessons, and interpretations would be good at this if you understood it as a game. Perhaps you have used the technique already, maybe even without realizing it. With our parents we can be naturally deferential if we're not too busy being rebels. It's work for sure sometimes, but you seem to realize the value of your parents to you, if you are willing already to submerge your own disbelief and validate theirs by accompanying them to church.

As I often do once I get started I don't know how to stop. So I'll just quit. I'll be interested in how you implement and describe your own strategies, GM.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

These stories about growing up in religious households are quite interesting. You should hear the stuff I grew up with. Talk about whacky and confusing, but I did finally read a psychology book when I was 13, and figured out my mom was a paranoid schizophrenic. I find her scaring me to death all the time is not so different than what people like GM and others have been through in a more fanatically fundy household. Can you imagine a whole group of people saying things my mom did?

It seems to me that is what the fanaticals are, and since religion (rather than stories about people going in your body and molesting you) is widely accepted, and how does a kid deal with waking up and finding out everybody around you is sharing differing degrees of the same delusion? It would be like a whole majority of people believing that other people drive red cars just to bug them personally, and you can see that is just not true.

GM and others don't have the comfort of reading a book that helps you understand why people are so crazy, instead you have the whole world telling you that you're evil for not believing what they do. That would have drove me insane...or more insane

Eos, who has the coolest damn avatar I’ve seen here, talked a bit about whether one is born w/ fundy tendencies or not. Good question. I have two other siblings, so three kids growing up in the household. Sibling number 1 has the fundy leanings we grew up learning about. Sibling number 2 is moderate and laid back in belief (could have something to do w/ his very gorgeous and somewhat religious SO, though.) I am the black sheep, constantly questioning, always looking for answers. Also, I would add that situational circumstances can fuel fundamentalism. For instance, we had two cases of nearly fatal, chronic illness in our family. I have no doubt our church habits would have been different had we all been healthy. Again, fear feeding fear.

Hey thanks! I'm glad I brought her back since she suits me and my name better. The glowering puppy was fun for a while, but now I feel my blue avatar is just more like being back to normal.

I know what you mean abut fear feeding fear. My husband and I lost our best friends to fanaticism after their first child was born missing a heart chamber and died. They believe toxins (in shampoo, toothpaste, cleaners, vaccines, etc.) caused it. They have no clue about genetics having only high school educations.
They can't fathom that it wasn't their fault, that and they couldn't do anything to prevent it. That way of thinking is a horrible burden, and now they pay 5 times the price for their all natural "safe" alternatives compared to what you pay in a regular grocery store for everything. She sells the crap to get a more discounted price, but you still are paying through the nose. And that toothpaste tastes like it was made with Buckleys (probably was).

While I have had to completely cut my mom off, there seems to be a balance that can be reached in families for the most part. I feel for you all. I just can't have my mom doing to my kids what she did to me. They don't need to be turned into anxiety ridden depressed souls (a lot of what I see in fundies for their fears).

 

[aries]

fundamentalism ?

Hello

As this will be, in a longer while, one of my last posts in this Forum, (due to an upcoming paper and then an exam,) I wonder why so many American (and Canadian ?) Churches are preaching hate instead of love, fear instead of compassion ?

This is a sociological question, by the way, not a religious one.

In Denmark (and Yes, it is the Denmark from the movie, "the Prince and me") where I live, religion is seen as a private matter, something others aren't allowed to mix in, (nobody's else's business than my own).

It is also illegal to ask an applicant (to a job) or an employer if he believes or in what he believes.

We do, of course, have some fundamentalists in our midst, but somehow there low key as opposed to what I have observed in the US. And then do not count for more than, say may 5-10 percent of the population, tops.

The fundamentalists here in Denmark of course also are against
same sex marriages, (which in Denmark are called 'registered partnerships), abortion, and homosexuals. But somehow, they do not seem to so cranky and weird ad the fundamentalists in the US/Canada.

I.e. the science/evolution vs. creationist debate that is so heated in the U.S., doesn't nearly exist at all. And I know of no fundamentalist in Denmark, that would attack, bomb or kill Doctors which partook in, or carried out abortions.(the doctors).

[I am merely pointing this out, I do not want to raise the whole abortion issue.]

So, from a socioloigical point of view, (as I have a degree in sociology) I'm amazed, and stunned. What inthe US society could have give rise to the fundamentalistic views of the churches ?

And was it always so ?

And, most churches that are fundamentalist in the US, are they not Lutheran (or Evangelical) churches ?

Just somethings to ponder...

best
wishes
aries

 

[elliotfc]

Atlas piped up with the idea that fundies should not be put on the same level as rational people. Where do we put them, then? In mental wards? Is this necessary? Is dialogue impossible on all fronts? I certainly hope not. As I have already admitted, fundamentalism gets in the way of dialogue w/ my family. To be fair, if I really had to talk about something that was in opposition to what my family believes, they would hear me out. It might be a frustrating discussion, but I’d still be loved, appreciated etc…when it was all said and done. So, communication is possible when respect happens on both sides. How do you do that? By building relationships I guess. However, relationship building can never occur if there’s animosity on both sides. I understand what your post was saying, Atlas, and I’m not bagging on you. Just playing a little devil’s advocate.

Well put GM. The idea that fundamentalists are irrational is a perspective, based on specific rules constructed by people promoting the perspective. All it shows is that people can fit into a constructed definition.

If the point is just to ridicule and place people beneath you as far as intellectual standards and what not, nice going. You've succeeded in putting down others and making yourself feel better about yourself relatively speaking.

If the point is dialogue with the "other" it's a poor start. I get the feeling that a common sentiment on this forum is that dialogue is useless/hopeless. Bad attitudes lumped on top of bad attitudes.

Many, if not most people on this board, come across as frustrated. You've tried to be reasonable with the fundamentalists and it just doesn't work. You're fighting against a faith different from your own. Whether or not these people are rational/irrational, they are content and have children and pass their ideas from generation to generation. Does that make the ideas correct? No. At the very least they are serviceable and communicable. Does it matter if the ideas are correct? I don't know. They keep having children and living long and satisfactory lives. Are you appealing to a universal standard of objective truth? If you are, where is the harm to the individual if their take on that truth is different from your own? If the only harm is derision from the type of person on this forum, it's a rather harmful life.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

But that's the beauty of it! There ARE unanswered questions. Through science, these questions are slowly answered. Religion - on the other hand - has everything all figured out.

Not so. Rather, your opinion about religion has religion all figured out.

If you really think that religion has everything all figured out, you are showing that you don't understand religion. And that display makes the things you say very unpersuasive to those who do understand religion. Unless that is the point, to be unpersuasive. You're welcome to have your incorrect conception of religion of course.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

The world will be a better, safer place when it is populated by only agnostics and atheists.

I do find such statements of faith reassuring...we all have beliefs and faith that are unprovable, don't we. When people say such things I see the similarities between us all.

As long as the atheists aren't like Kim Jung Il and Stalin of course, but that goes without saying.

The key is good conduct, applied to a universal standard. Surely we all agree about that as well. It isn't what you believe, or what you don't believe, but how you act. I'd retract that statement if you could prove to me that atheists don't do things like murder other people or act in similar nefarious ways.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Let's face it, life is scary. None of us are getting out alive.

Hey GM, yours is a refreshing voice and I look foward to having discussions with you.

Many people here would disagree with your statement that "life is scary". Some people will say that life is life, life ends in death, and such facts, as they are reality, aren't scary but just the overall deal. Fear is a defense mechanism that would lead people to things like relgion, I think that is how the theory works. So, a contrived and artificial fear is solved and defeated by a contrived and artificial system of belief.

Now, an admission that "life is scary" suggests that it is scary for everyone. Thus, people who don't think it's scary have constructed some kind of mental defense against that reality. That construct, of course, doesn't necessarily have to be religion. It could be rational and well-balanced atheism.

As for me, I don't know if life is scary. I don't know if I have ever thought that life is scary. Of course certain things about life are scary. Would that make life as a whole scary? Maybe. I don't think so. I do know that many people on this board will adamantly argue that life isn't scary. And I do know that many Christians will adamntly argue that life isn't scary. What do they have in common? A belief system that tells them that life isn't scary.

Now, is there an objective true standard that insists or proves that life is scary? I don't know to be honest.

It can be overwhelming to think that your time could be over at any moment. I think this fear can overwhelm and be used against people. Now I guess I don’t blame Joe Fundie for this, although I’ll put a heaping helpin’ spoonful of responsibility on church leaders who propagate that fear.

Not all church leaders propagate that fear. Rather, they propagte a more liberating way of thinking. People often approach religion (or any ideology) when they are at their lowest point. At their most maleable/susceptible? Sure, why not. How many people have come to atheism/agnosticism after years of frustration. It works the other way too. Maybe the real fear is mental discontentment? Just about everyone on this list waxes adamant and authoritative about what they say and what they believe. It is good to feel such power and such contentment that you can talk that way. The key is THAT you believe, and how firmly you believe it, not necessarily what you believe.

More about fear. It's like people here NEED or HAVE to believe that the *other* is motivated by fear. To me that appears like a defense mechanism, or an aspect of wishful thinking. Are other people motivated by fear? Like anything, some are and some aren't. But some people here need to insist that the *other* is motivated by fear. That says more about the person making the judgment than about the person being judged.

On the other hand, Joe Fundie needs to accept responsibility for his own life, but can he do that if he is afraid to alter his world view?
I’m rambling out loud again…

I think fundamentalists do accept responsibility for their own lives, so much so that their beliefs compel them to alter their lives from what they were before and act in a certain way. Such personal changes do display a person taking control of their lives.

As for world views, how many people here are willing are able to alter their world views? Once you find a satisfactory world view, is it OK to stick with it through thick and thin, as you would a satisfactory spouse?

GM I look forward to hearing more from you, I'll be back in a week or so, school is just about wrapped up for me.

-Elliot

 

[triadboy]

Not so. Rather, your opinion about religion has religion all figured out.

If you really think that religion has everything all figured out, you are showing that you don't understand religion. And that display makes the things you say very unpersuasive to those who do understand religion. Unless that is the point, to be unpersuasive. You're welcome to have your incorrect conception of religion of course.

I study religions. Name something that religion does not have an answer for. Any religion.

 

[The GM]

Holy cow! Look at all these great posts! I have so many thoughts on what people have discussed, let me see if I can organize my ideas!

Let’s start from the top.

Atlas was chatting about how he communicates with his family. Very informative and gives me some ideas about potential solutions. He then wanted to know how I ‘deal with it.’ For the longest time, it was through avoidance. Not through avoidance of actually seeing my family, but as an unspoken mutual ‘I won’t bring it up if you don’t ’ kinda thing. Now, very recently I had a constructive and in depth conversation w/ dear old Mom concerning the validity of religion. (Note: Not the validity of God, just religion.) I kinda snuck in the backdoor. She was concerned about the rise of pagan (read, Satan inspired) religions. I usually would have just nodded and changed the subject, but I decided to try to make it a teaching moment instead. I told her it was bunk, that Wiccans, Druids, and other ‘witch’ religions were complete and utter bunk. She asked me if I believed in evil, which I do, but I made a simple point. If spells and magic were real, then everyone would want to learn how to do it and thus further their own agendas. We wouldn’t have a war w/ Iraq, we’d just have our top sorcerers place hexes on our enemies. We wouldn’t have doctors roaming the halls of hospitals, it would be shamans. I basically said that it’s ridiculous to fear something that does not exist. Satan can’t work through pagan magic because their so called magic simply doesn’t work in the physics of our world. She had honestly not thought of that before and at the end of the conversation she said, much to my amazement, and had me nearly falling out of the chair, “You’re right to be skeptical and what you said makes sense.” The conversation had no Bible beating, no dueling scripture quotes, just me and Mom talking rationally about why it’s nonsense to be afraid of pagans and their Satanly influence. I was in a great mood for the rest of the day because if nothing else, maybe I helped eliminate a false fear.
So the short version of that story is, I’m still learning. J

Eos talked about her friends who blame themselves for the loss of a child. Terrible, and then if they joined an MLM to combat it, even worse. I am really sorry that happened to them. MLM organizations are easily as fundamental as some religions complete with belief systems, strictures and scriptures. The good news it that it’s easer to escape an MLM than it is a typical fundy religion. (If that’s what they are doing, which it rather sounds that way from your post.) The average MLMer drops out after 2-3 years, sometimes a little more or less. Should your pals decide to get out, and should you decide to support them again, they should return to their regularly scheduled selves when they are outside of their ‘chain of leadership’. I wish you and them the best of luck on that topic. As far as your mother, you have my complete understanding and I wish it were different for you, but good for you for making the decisions you feel are right for your family.

Aries wanted to talk about the sociology of fundamental behavior in the US/CAN. I believe I read somewhere (and someone correct me if I’m talking out my butt here,) that only 10% of the population is fundamentalist. The reason I would guess you hear more about fundie behavior here is because of a bigger population in the US/CAN, so obviously larger number of fundies than in Denmark.
About who is fundamentalist? Anyone could be. Now, my spouse is Lutheran by habit. (By that, I mean my spouse was raised that way, went to the same church throughout childhood, but does not actively practice now.) When we wanted to get married, we were turned away by the childhood church and minister because we were pregnant. Sex before marriage is a sin, God does not condone sin, thus no marriage for you! Now, my spouse and in-laws were shocked by this sudden ‘betrayal’ of the church. I grew up in this sort of thing, so it just kinda rolled off my back. They immediately withdrew their support (financial and otherwise) from the church they had gone to for 20 years. I couldn’t work up the nerve to be upset like they were because I understood that it was the law of one man (in this case, the minister) who had prevented the marriage, it was not God’s law. We ended up getting hitched in a different synod of the Lutheran church, one that wasn’t so fundy prone. However, that incident forever damaged the relationship my spouse and in-laws had with the church. So yes, some sects of Lutherans are fundy, some not. Same could be said for any religion I think. Now I wasn’t raised Lutheran, but Southern Baptist style, and I would say they are far more fundy than the Lutherans could ever dream of being, but this is only my perspective, and statistically, I could be wrong here.

Elliotfc gave me compliments that made me blush. S/he put some questions to Triadboy that I had thought of but had been a bit too shy to call him to the carpet on. Elliot also talked about how fundies accept complete control of their lives. Here we disagree because I’ve heard the statements ‘Just give your life to Jesus, God handles everything, It’s Satan at work,’ so many times that it’s obvious you aren’t encouraged to take control of your own life. More often than not I see these kinds of statements as excuses for poor decision making. Didn’t pay your bills? God will provide. Little Johnny got little Suzy knocked up? It was Satan’s spirit of lust. And so forth. People may be disciplined to the religious practices, but are they really taking control of their lives, or are they finding a convenient scapegoat for their problems? To be fair, probably a bit of both, but I dislike excuses, particularly excuses that relate to failures based on repeated poor decision making.

 

[The GM]

I study religions. Name something that religion does not have an answer for. Any religion.

According to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve. They had two sons, Cain and Abel. Cain slew Abel, leaving Adam, Eve, and Cain on the planet.
Who did Cain mate with to propogate the human race?

 

[triadboy]

According to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve. They had two sons, Cain and Abel. Cain slew Abel, leaving Adam, Eve, and Cain on the planet.
Who did Cain mate with to propogate the human race?

Incest, baby!

...laws against brother-sister intermarriage were not introduced until the time of Moses. Before then, there were few genetic defects (mutations) that today make it inadvisable for close relatives to marry.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/feedback11-6-2000.asp


Keep 'em coming.

 

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by elliotfc

More about fear. It's like people here NEED or HAVE to believe that the *other* is motivated by fear. To me that appears like a defense mechanism, or an aspect of wishful thinking. Are other people motivated by fear? Like anything, some are and some aren't. But some people here need to insist that the *other* is motivated by fear. That says more about the person making the judgment than about the person being judged.

And then you have those people who need to insist that the *other* needs to insist that the *other* is motivated by fear. Seriously, though, your objection seems reasonable enough -- in fact, I find myself in agreement with most of that entire post.

For me, the most fascinating aspects of human thought emerge when it addresses human thought itself. My view is that the most important task which our brains evolved to perform is to make reasonably accurate guesses as to what other humans are thinking, and reasonably accurate predictions as to how they might react to various situations. A critical aspect of that is the ability to examine the essential motivations that lead a person to reach his conclusions. Perhaps most fascinating of all is that it is often much easier to do this accurately when the subject is a person other than oneself.

 

[The GM]

Incest, baby!
Keep 'em coming.

*Laughs*
Very good! You're on the ball. If you're willing to take Bible facts for 300, here's question number 2.

According to the good book, Earth is about 6,000 years old. We know that Christ was born 2000 years ago, give or take a few. That leaves 4,000 years between creation and Christ's birth. We are told that the only way into Heaven is through a personal relationship with Jesus. If this is the case, then what happened to all of the hapless souls who lived prior to Christ's birth and thus couldn't have a relationship w/ him? Are they burning in the fiery pits of Hell now and for eternity?

*As a side note, you seem like a pretty bright guy, Triad, so you probably see where I'm going here but play along for the sake of argument and the amusement of the peanut gallery. *

 

[triadboy]

According to the good book, Earth is about 6,000 years old. We know that Christ was born 2000 years ago, give or take a few. That leaves 4,000 years between creation and Christ's birth. We are told that the only way into Heaven is through a personal relationship with Jesus. If this is the case, then what happened to all of the hapless souls who lived prior to Christ's birth and thus couldn't have a relationship w/ him? Are they burning in the fiery pits of Hell now and for eternity?

It depends on who you talk to. This is a lovely thing to bring up to xians because it speaks directly to the Xian religion. There are guesses that say Jesus ministered to the Pre-Jesus masses during the 3 days of his resurrection. There are those that say "In the Beginning was the Word..." shows that Jesus was around at the beginning and so if people followed the Mosaic Laws they were saved. There is also the belief that there is a place called Paradise where everyone in question goes - a waiting room for Heaven.

But what it REALLY comes down to is this - Christianity is a bigoted religion. Christians are going to Heaven - and if you are not one of them you are going to hell. Even if you are a Hindu and heard of Jesus only once - you are going to hell. Even though God supposedly created and loves the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. - He will send them to hell because they didn't immediately reject their faith - and begin following Jesus! (The arrogance!) Tribal gods are not good for this world.

Things like this are unexplainable, because they are derived from philosophical mistakes - written by men - in the bible.

When someone asked St Augustine - What was God doing before the beginning? He replied, "Creating hell for people who ask questions like that."

 

[The GM]

And there ya go. Religion doesn't have all of the answers. If it did, there wouldn't be so many of them let alone alternative beliefs because there would be nothing to question.

 

[triadboy]

And there ya go. Religion doesn't have all of the answers. If it did, there wouldn't be so many of them let alone alternative beliefs because there would be nothing to question.

Wrong. Just because I didn't post a quote from a Christian source does not mean they don't have one. That particular scenario, though, speaks to the bigoted nature of xianity - so I rambled off on my own.

Do you honestly believe your question doesn't have an "official" answer?! I'll dig around a bit - but rest assured - the church has the answer.

 

[triadboy]

St. Paul's writings teach that salvation may have been once attained by strictly following Jewish law. However, since Christ's ministry, it is dependent upon one's faith in the saving power of Jesus' death and resurrection.

I snatched this from ReligiousTolerance.org. (forgot to copy the link)