Fundamentalism Blows

[The GM]

The following is only my POV. I’ve recently begun to think about this stuff in a more critical light as opposed to my initial thoughts on the matter which basically amounted to an ‘ew’ reaction, much like when you step into a pile of dog crap.
I’ve come to think that all forms of fundamentalism are bad. I don’t limit this leaning to religious fundamentalism. If there were an equivalent term for atheist fundamentalism, I’d say it was as repulsive as the religious variety. Even as a kid, I knew there was something creepy about fundamentalism. I grew up in a fire and brimstone type atmosphere. Church, tent revivals, faith healings, and other related events were the norm for me. Attendance was required. Unlike some folks who find the act of going to church to be a pleasant social outlet, I often found it scary, overwhelming, and confusing. God was to be praised and feared. The end was nigh. My childhood TV pals weren’t Burt and Ernie, but a constant stream of Pat Robertson and Jim and Tammy Faye. Nuclear war was coming. The Russians, led by the Anti Christ would bring about the rapture, and you better have your soul in order before that occurred! By the time I was 5, I had been ‘faith healed’ of a congenital eye problem I have. (For the record, I’m still blind as a bat.) I remember very clearly being on the stage and the preacher floor flopping the faithful left and right. I couldn’t feel any other worldly presences, but all of the adults were collapsing to the floor when the preacher touched them, so I did too. The preacher pronounced me healed; too bad it didn’t actually affect my sight. When I mentioned this, I was told that only the faithful get a miracle, so I had to believe harder. By the time I was eight, I was so scared of God that I wouldn’t even speak his name for fear that I might attract his wrath somehow for interrupting him in the middle of some more important task. I remember crying my self to sleep many times, wondering why God was going to blow up the planet and what would happen to all of the sinners who were doomed to a fiery eternity. At fifteen, I patently refused to attend church anymore. The pressure of worshiping a god who seemed bent on killing everyone on the planet had me resenting all religions. Any questions I asked that fell outside of the church doctrine were immediately answered with long drawn out lectures which I termed ‘God talks’. The answers really never cleared anything up for me, and in fact, created more unanswerable questions. I finally gave up trying to force the dogma to make sense and let it go.
Fast forward to today. I am not afraid anymore. What I am is a bit disgusted. Fundamentalism essentially slams the door closed on healthy discourse, questioning of church officials, exploration of alternate views, etc… Fundamentalism is a roadblock to communication. I love my family, but there are some things we simply can not discuss because fundamentalism gets in the damn way. I would guess, in part, that’s the reason I’m talking about some of this stuff here. I need to verbalize my frustration in some way. I haven’t ruled out the possibility of a creator by any means, but I also don’t think he/she/it is standing at the ready with a finger on the trigger waiting to blow us all away either. I’m pretty lucky to have a very diverse group of friends who believe in everything from atheism to animism. Their views are interesting, although I may not buy any of it. At least they don’t try to tell me their way is the one true way, and hey, if lighting a positive energy candle once a day helps my pal make sense of the world, good for him. So fundamentalism isn’t the same as religion, yes? What I find discouraging is the cavalier attitude I’ve found towards fundies. These people really, really, really, really believe in what they are saying, although IMHO that belief is driven by fear. As soon as fear enters the equation, minds close like traps. Fundamentalists of any sect don’t need our derision. This only strengthens the hold that their fear has over them. Ex. ‘See, I knew those atheists/wiccans/UFO-ers are just trying to lead me astray. This guy not only challenged my beliefs but he called me names, thus hurting my feelings, thus making me not like him, thus confirming my initial dislike of his ‘weird views’. My preacher/imam/clergy was right, I should shun him.’
What is the solution to opening up fear closed minds? I dunno, but if someone can figure it out, box it, and sell it, they’d become a billionaire.
BTW, my tone of voice isn’t really snarky here, more like weary with a touch of anger but not at any forum member here.

 

[geni]

I don't think you are going to find many people here dissareeing with you. Welcome the forum.

 

[shemp]

Welcome to the forum. You'll find a lot of people who agree with you here, and some who don't. Good Luck.

Even though I wasn't brought up in a religious household, I grew up sure that God was watching. I began to wake up when I was 12. I had a leg operation, and was walking with the aid of crutches. One day, I went grocery shopping with my mom, and I was standing alone looking at something on a shelf while she had gone further down the aisle. A woman and a little boy passed behind me, and I heard the boy whisper "What happened to him?" His mother whispered "He did something bad and God is punishing him." That didn't make sense to me, and was the day I began questioning religion. Today I'm free of this nonsense, and not afraid of any deity.

 

[MLynn]

Welcome, GM - and thank you for your post! It nearly brought me to tears. I'm a Xian, but I agree with you that all forms of fundamentalism blow, s*ck, etc., etc. I'm very much moderate in my beliefs and practice - it's the only way I can be true to myself and to others. I hope this Forum provides you with a haven and a way to make new friends. Keep posting!

 

[Atlas]

Welcome GM,

I agree with Geni. You'll find little disagreement.

As to your comment on derision, sure the fundies don't need it. But ridicule is a powerful eye-opener to anyone on the fence. It undercuts their authority which so many cling to and wield like a blunt force instrument.

And to be honest, you can't really reason with fundies. Faith is something that is virtually unassailable by logic. Sure it may increase doubt, but fasting and mortification of the flesh can bring you back to the loving arms of the faithful.

Actually trying to reason with fundies and Jihadists puts them on the same level as rational beings. From the outside it appears that thoughtful people are engaging in a dialogue to resolve a dispute that honestly could go either way. Whether an opponent is promising chaos and destruction or merely eternal hellfire - it's more a sign of mental illness or insidious power manipulation, neither of which cowers in the face of logic but may shrink from exposure to unrelenting ridicule.

 

[triadboy]

Welcome!

Read some Joseph Campbell. He spent his life studying world mythologies. Christianity is just another mythology. However, today we don't understand the symbols of this mythology anymore. We are too far removed. For instance, the Virgin Birth - many other myths contain virgin births, but this was supposed to convey a spiritually pure birth - not an actual birth to a woman who never had sex. Mythological symbols meant to address and comfort nomadic desert tribes - with time - became distorted and misunderstood.

 

[Dymanic]

The world is complicated. People are complicated. Trying to figure stuff out takes a lot of work. It can be exhausting, frustrating, and overwhelming, because the more you learn, the more you realize how much you still don't know; how much you can never know; how there is always more than one way of looking at things. I actually find it quite understandable that so many would choose fundamentalism (in any of its many forms) as an alternative to wrestling with all that complexity, uncertainty, and ambiguity. It's like... a place to rest your head. A place where things are simple; where ideas hold still. Provided that one could reconcile oneself the to rules that apply in such a place, I can see how that could be quite comforting, and I almost envy those who are able to do so... almost, that is, but not quite.

For one thing, I suspect that many who seek that comfort remain unsatisfied, finding themselves unable to reconcile themselves to the rules -- and this despite their most adamant claims to the contrary (when you really, really, really believe something, you don't have to have it constantly reinforced).

But mainly, I guess what it is is that I somehow consider it a moral obligation to continue to make the best possible effort to figure stuff out, even in the face of the acknowledgement that: "vanity, vanity, all is vanity". Fundamentalism is giving up. I can understand that, and I may at times almost envy it, but one thing I cannot do is admire it.

Childhood is traumatic, period.

Atheism is the red pill.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[The GM]

Thanks for the welcome, everyone although I’ve been lurking for sometime so I’ve read a lot of what you guys have said.
Couple thoughts. Dynamic talked about how the world is complicated. Go tell it on the mountain. Then S/he said that fundamentalism was like a place to rest your weary head. I would disagree. It’s more like putting on a pair of shoes that are supposed to be your comfy ones, except they aren’t. They pinch your toes and give you blisters, but you wear them anyway because you’re afraid to try on a new pair. After all, the new pair might be worse than the old ones and so you hope you’ll break in the old ones and they will become what you want them to be, but they never quite fit. Still, you wear them and after awhile you get used to the irritation and rationalize that it isn’t so bad, other people have worse shoes, you should be grateful for the ones you have. S/he also snuck in a Matrix reference concerning atheism. (Cool flick, btw.) I have as many questions regarding atheism as I do about deism. I don’t see atheism as the great Pez dispenser of logical ideology. That way of thinking still leaves unanswered questions. I’m still looking though, so my opinion could change over time.

Atlas piped up with the idea that fundies should not be put on the same level as rational people. Where do we put them, then? In mental wards? Is this necessary? Is dialogue impossible on all fronts? I certainly hope not. As I have already admitted, fundamentalism gets in the way of dialogue w/ my family. To be fair, if I really had to talk about something that was in opposition to what my family believes, they would hear me out. It might be a frustrating discussion, but I’d still be loved, appreciated etc…when it was all said and done. So, communication is possible when respect happens on both sides. How do you do that? By building relationships I guess. However, relationship building can never occur if there’s animosity on both sides. I understand what your post was saying, Atlas, and I’m not bagging on you. Just playing a little devil’s advocate.

Michelle said I almost drove her to tears. For goodness sake, don’t feel sorry for me! My post isn’t about my poor abused childhood. Sorry if I led anyone to that conclusion. I was just giving a little background as to how I’ve arrived at the thinkin’ spot I’m at today.

Oh, and Shemp shared a story that had happened to him. What a terrible thing, and far worse than anything that happened to me.

 

[triadboy]

I don’t see atheism as the great Pez dispenser of logical ideology. That way of thinking still leaves unanswered questions.

But that's the beauty of it! There ARE unanswered questions. Through science, these questions are slowly answered. Religion - on the other hand - has everything all figured out.

 

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by GM

It’s more like putting on a pair of shoes that are supposed to be your comfy ones, except they aren’t.

Yes, your metaphor of the shoes works for me, and that's just what I meant by saying I suspect that many who seek that comfort remain unsatisfied. The popular solution to this problem seems to be to take every possible opportunity to sing out about how wonderful those shoes feel, to anybody who is willing to listen. Or even if they aren't. In fact, maybe especially if they aren't. And try to sell them a pair. If you can get them singing about how great those shoes feel on their feet, maybe you won't notice your own blisters so much.

And while your post may not have been about your poor abused childhood, what you related does qualify as abuse in my opinion. The adults in your life were emotionally needy, and your indoctrination was part of a process by which they sought to satisfy their own emotional needs. Whether or not you recognize it as such, whenever an adult -- especially a parent -- places his own needs (as he percieves them) above those of a child, the groundwork for an abusive situation is in place. That it was well-intentioned goes only so far in mitigating the damage. Your post suggests that you do feel some anger about that, though you direct it toward 'fundamentalism' rather than toward your family. For all I know, that may well be the case, but if you aren't being honest with yourself about who you are really angry at, that may continue to be an obstacle to improved relationship building.

And as far as unanswered questions, as triadboy pointed out, science does slowly answer them. Unfortunately, every answer seems to produce a host of new questions, leading to the inevitable conclusion that we will never have it all figured out. If that's 'beautiful' it is beautiful in a disturbing, frightening, and depressing way; something in me wants to have things figured out, and it wants it bad.

P.S. I'm a 'he'.

 

[Chaos]

But that's the beauty of it! There ARE unanswered questions. Through science, these questions are slowly answered. Religion - on the other hand - has everything all figured out.

That´s exactly the point. There are QUESTIONS. Asking questions is the first step towards wisdom.

 

[evildave]

I don't have unrealistic expectations to ever have "all the answers", and certainly do not assume that one little black book full of inconsistencies, blood and gibberish has them laid out for me... if only I twist around the words I find there in the right way.

Technically, I am plain 'agnostic', but it's more fun to take the extreme position to argue a point.

Sure I'll admit there "could" be a god, but only when you admit that there also "could" also be a lot of other things besides a "god". Purple squiddy things, invisible pink unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, sprites, etc.

Maybe the universe came from a fart from the mystical uber-donkey? It appears to serve the same purpose as setting up a "god" to do it.

Added: Certainly, such a 'theory' would appeal to jackasses.

 

[triadboy]

Technically, I am plain 'agnostic', but it's more fun to take the extreme position to argue a point.

The world will be a better, safer place when it is populated by only agnostics and atheists.

 

[MLynn]

The world will be a better, safer place when it is populated by only agnostics and atheists.

Could a misfit Xian like myself join you? I still ask questions and need answers too.

 

[triadboy]

Could a misfit Xian like myself join you? I still ask questions and need answers too.

Yes, you will be allowed to stay with us, but you'll need to bring the chips.

 

[MLynn]

Yes, you will be allowed to stay with us, but you'll need to bring the chips.

Oh, thank you - you are SO much nicer than those so-called Xians at RR! And yes, I will bring chips galore!

 

[Mercutio]

T I don’t see atheism as the great Pez dispenser of logical ideology.

I don't really have anything to add just yet--although I probably will. I just loved this phrase, that's all. Welcome!

And I agree, that was a terrible thing for someone to say about Shemp. Makes me wish for time travel, so current-Shemp could go back and say things to the lady...

 

[MLynn]

And I agree, that was a terrible thing for someone to say about Shemp. Makes me wish for time travel, so current-Shemp could go back and say things to the lady...

Ditto - it's amazing the terrible things adults say to/around children that affect them the rest of their lives. I once overheard a mother tell her not-so-obedient son, "are you going to be an angel son or a demon son today?" And her tone of voice made a chill run up my back.

 

[The GM]

Lots of good points to consider here. Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone!
One thing I do have to clear up, however. Dynamic made a comment that he considered my upbringing to be abusive or potentially abusive. I will clearly say I don’t believe that’s the case as everything that my folks did in regards to my religious tutelage came from a position of love. In true abuse situations, it isn’t about love, it’s about control. To say that my folks abused me is unfair to them and also unfair to real victims of abuse. I’m no victim.
Was it uncomfortable at times? You bet it was, it shaped the person I am today. Would I question fundamentalism today if I hadn’t seen what it can do first hand? Most likely not. I’d just see it as kooky practice and move on. I base this assumption on how my friends have reacted when I’ve explained my upbringing. They don’t really get it or understand why I’m so frustrated with it.
Having said all of that, I think open communication can occur with fundamentalists of all stripes if relationship building occurs first. Now someone is about to pipe up and say, ‘yeah, well what about XYZ group. You can’t talk to/ reason with them!!!’ I’d probably agree that the most delusional groups of people are gonzo. However, your average Joe Fundamentalist would be more likely to listen to reason if A. He likes you and B. Feels safe to discuss contrary matters with you. The reason he clings to his beliefs is because of fear, I guarantee it. Fear locks him up in a little box from which he can’t see the way out.
Let’s face it, life is scary. None of us are getting out alive. It can be overwhelming to think that your time could be over at any moment. I think this fear can overwhelm and be used against people. Now I guess I don’t blame Joe Fundie for this, although I’ll put a heaping helpin’ spoonful of responsibility on church leaders who propagate that fear. On the other hand, Joe Fundie needs to accept responsibility for his own life, but can he do that if he is afraid to alter his world view?
I’m rambling out loud again…

 

[MLynn]

I’m rambling out loud again…

Aww, it's good for ya - many people ramble out loud here (heheheheheheh)