Fun with a Chiropractor

[Sefarst]

Grrrrrr .... Friday's are supposed to be good days. Seeing that video makes me see red even more.

Don't get too angry, you might knock your subluxations out of whack.

 

[mayday]

Do you have any documentation to prove this exchange occurred?

 

[SRW]

Here's a video of a Chiropractor doing an adjustment on a 3 month old.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8JY7lUw4vu0&feature=related

I'm not sure what kind of back problems a baby would have that require Chiropractic adjustments. Maybe the "my parents are morons" kind.

Now I wonder what kind of back problems that baby will have. This film makes me feel bad that the guy didn't take a swing at me instead of rushing off. It might have been fun to deck him. I guess he had babies to bend so why get into it with a grown man.

 

[SRW]

Do you have any documentation to prove this exchange occurred?

Yes

 

[Blue Wode]

Here's a video of a Chiropractor doing an adjustment on a 3 month old.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8JY7lUw4vu0&feature=related

I'm not sure what kind of back problems a baby would have that require Chiropractic adjustments. Maybe the "my parents are morons" kind.

I suspect that the infant was receiving a bogus wellness/maintenance care adjustment session. Here’s what a group of Canadian neurologists have to say about ‘paediatric chiropractic’:

Statement of Concern to the Canadian Public from Canadian Neurologists Regarding the Debilitating and Fatal Damage Manipulation of the Neck May Cause to the Nervous System

February 2002​

Concern #5: Provincial Ministries of Health should acknowledge and act upon the strong concerns and recommendations of the scientific pediatric community regarding so-called "pediatric chiropractic."

Chiropractors in Canada perform cervical manipulation in children for the "treatment" of infantile colic, inner ear infections, bedwetting and a myriad of other paediatric illnesses. Chiropractic authorities claim that parents should bring their new-born baby to a chiropractor "as soon as possible after birth." [18] Such claims and recommendations have no scientific basis and only expose infants and children to unwarranted neck manipulation.

Strong concerns have been expressed by the Chiefs of Paediatrics of our Canadian Hospitals [19] and by the Canadian Paediatric Society regarding chiropractic manipulation on the spines of infants and children [20].

Paralysis and other complications in infants and children following cervical neck manipulation have occurred [21]. Death has also been reported [23].


We strongly recommend that each provincial Ministry of Health order the immediate banning of all spinal manipulation of infants and children.


http://www.chirobase.org/15News/neurol.html

More concerns in this 2003 article:

Although there has not been a definite cause-and-occurence relationship established between spinal manipulation in children and growth plate injuries, the potential for growth plate fractures and other subtle injuries of the pediatric spine, including facet avulsion or dislocation, must be appreciated by the physician utilizing manipulation as a manual therapy modality. This might avoid creating irreversible injury that may not be initially recognized... The overall incidence of total injuries sustained from manipulation of the adult spine are underestimated. It is therefore likely that growth plate injuries in children following spinal manipulation are substantially underestimated."

Michael L. O'Neal, DO, Assistant Professor, Department of Family Medicine, University of South Florida College of Medicine
The Pediatric Spine: Anatomical and Dynamic Considerations Preceding Manipulation
http://www.ccffm.net/pediatric manipulation.pdf

Regarding colic..

My girlfriend's brother had his daughter taken to a chiro - she was 6 months old .... they claim it "cured" her colic.

…nw843x, there is no evidence that chiropractic can cure infantile colic. For anyone interested, it was a topic that was recently discussed with two chiropractors on the UK Skeptics forum:

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1610&page=12
(Colic discussion starts at post #169)

Perhaps not surprisingly, all the chiropractors posting to that thread (“Value of chiropractors questioned”) struggled to defend their claims before giving up.

 

[mayday]

Yes

Sorry, we can't count this thread as documentation.

A recording or video would be best.

 

[SRW]

Sorry, we can't count this thread as documentation.

A recording or video would be best.

Right, just to make you happy I'll run down to the bank and get the security video. Please feel free to hold your breath while waiting for me.

 

[Minarvia]

I just got home and am sitting down to relax. I think I'll wait a bit before viewing the adjustment of the 3 month old. I just KNOW that will get me angry.

Blue Wode - thanks for the links. I'll check them out. It was good to see that what I did was right. I was on diclofinac for a little while and it helped me. I actually suffer from neck pain once in a while since I have done key entry as a job for years and my nerves and muscles get all in a bundle sometimes.

Speaking of the "reformed" chiropractors, I'll have to ask my aunt about hers. She swears by hers and said he has lots of medical training and is constantly going to seminars. I wonder (and hope) he is one of the better ones.

All in all, I want to learn more about chiropractic. Threads like this are not only interesting, but the helpful info in them can help many of us perhaps keep loved ones from getting seriously hurt.

 

[Blue Wode]

Speaking of the "reformed" chiropractors, I'll have to ask my aunt about hers. She swears by hers and said he has lots of medical training and is constantly going to seminars. I wonder (and hope) he is one of the better ones.

Well, let’s hope that he is on of the “better ones”, because…

…many chiropractors attend what are known as practice building seminars or schools. These seminars promise to increase the size and profitability of a chiropractor’s practice, which in itself is not unethical, for there is nothing wrong with honorable self promotion. Some of the techniques taught in these seminars, however, are blatantly unethical.

Examples include convincing patients that vague or minor symptoms they are experiencing are actually warning signs of serious disease that can be prevented by chiropractic manipulation. This is sometimes referred to as the “yet” syndrome, as chiropractors often ask patients leading questions, such as “Do you have any weakness in your legs yet?” Success schools also teach chiropractors to rehearse standard responses to patients who have become disillusioned with their lack of progress. These statements are designed to keep patients coming back for more therapy even if it is not helping their complaints. Similarly, patients who come in for an acute complaint which then resolves are talked into long term treatment, or maintenance therapy, to keep the problem from recurring.

Such techniques amount to exploitation, for the chiropractor is in an advantageous position over their patients, who are often vulnerable due to being ill. They utilize the advantage of their position to manipulate their patients into expensive services that are not necessary. Of course, unethical practices occur in all professions, but chiropractic is unique in that institutions exist which expressly teach them how to build their practice through such unethical techniques.


Steven Novella, MD
The Connecticut Skeptic
http://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=5

All in all, I want to learn more about chiropractic. Threads like this are not only interesting, but the helpful info in them can help many of us perhaps keep loved ones from getting seriously hurt.

This debate which neurologist Steven Novella recently had with a chiropractor might also help you, and others, gain some additional insight into the problems with the way in which many chiropractors like to promote themselves:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=132

 

[SRW]

This debate which neurologist Steven Novella recently had with a chiropractor might also help you, and others, gain some additional insight into the problems with the way in which many chiropractors like to promote themselves:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=132

Great info as always Blue Wode; this debate is pure gold. I am going to print it out and put it on the bulletin board at work. (when no one is looking).

 

[Minarvia]

Great info as always Blue Wode; this debate is pure gold. I am going to print it out and put it on the bulletin board at work. (when no one is looking).

No kidding this is pure gold. I am learning alot and getting some great resources to share with my mom and aunt. This is the sort of thing everybody should know about.

 

[JJM]

{snip}
Speaking of the "reformed" chiropractors, I'll have to ask my aunt about hers. She swears by hers and said he has lots of medical training and is constantly going to seminars. I wonder (and hope) he is one of the better ones.

You cannot trust what a chiro says about his/her/it's, qualifications. Their literature represents that their medical knowledge is on a par with an MD. However, after four years of medical school an MD spends another 4-6 years in clinical training (in a hospital, with sick people) for a specialty before obtaining a license to practice independently. Whereas, the chiro graduates after four years and is immediately licensed to practice independently; this can be done without ever seeing anyone who is ill.

Yes, chiropractic clinical training is mostly done with healthy friends and family members who can be cajoled (or bribed) to attend the clinic for examination. There are several categories of back pain; but chiros don't necessarily even see them before they are licensed. And this minimal, clinical experience comes at the expense of class time learning about things medical. Someone observed that chiros spend their time learning "conversational" medicine; they simply learn the terms that impress their customers. They have no hope of identifying serious illness.

If your aunt has been receiving regular treatments,- by definition the chiro is a quack. Nobody needs regular "spinal checkups and adjustments." Sorry.

All in all, I want to learn more about chiropractic. Threads like this are not only interesting, but the helpful info in them can help many of us perhaps keep loved ones from getting seriously hurt.

Blue Wode has cited this indirectly, I don't recall a direct mention, you can learn a lot from http://www.chirobase.org/ It is run by Samuel Homola, a retired chiropractor (who did his best to only practice evidence-based therapy for 42 years) and Stephen Barrett, MD, who has studied quackery (chiro, particularly) since the early 1970s.

 

[mayday]

I don't understand what is wrong with chiropractors. They take their training with regular MD's and then split off to focus on another area of medicine.They can do a lot for a stiff neck and back. I am constantly popping my neck and vertebrae, knuckles, wrists, phalanx, feet myself. Popping your joints actually helps to lubricate them...does everyone else walk around like the tin man?

Also, a chiropractor (very nice man) met us at his office after hours one time and fixed my son's nurse maid's elbow...at no charge.

 

[devnull]

You think chiropractors train with doctors? like at university?

really?

 

[mayday]

You think chiropractors train with doctors? like at university?

really?

I did not say that. They take the same pre-requisites for medical school.

 

[devnull]

I did not say that. They take the same pre-requisites for medical school.

Out of interest, can you expand on this?

 

[JJM]

I don't understand what is wrong with chiropractors. They take their training with regular MD's and then split off to focus on another area of medicine.

That is what they would have you think. Read the facts at http://www.chirobase.org/ You can meet chiros, lots of them, who have not even finished college before going to chiro school (some have not even attended college). And chiro is not "another area of medicine" just as astrology is not another area of science. Chiro is a cult based on the notions of an ignorant grocer.

{snip}

Also, a chiropractor (very nice man) met us at his office after hours one time and fixed my son's nurse maid's elbow...at no charge.

Anecdotes prove nothing.

 

[mayday]

That is what they would have you think. Read the facts at http://www.chirobase.org/ You can meet chiros, lots of them, who have not even finished college before going to chiro school (some have not even attended college). And chiro is not "another area of medicine" just as astrology is not another area of science. Chiro is a cult based on the notions of an ignorant grocer.

Well, chiropracty has done fine by me.

Anecdotes prove nothing.

You mean, like the post that started this thread?

 

[fls]

Well, chiropracty has done fine by me.

That's the point. Since most people will do 'fine', most anything you want to make up will do 'fine' whenever you want to pretend that post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Linda

 

[fls]

I don't understand what is wrong with chiropractors. They take their training with regular MD's

They do not. None of their training is associated with medical colleges.

and then split off to focus on another area of medicine.They can do a lot for a stiff neck and back. I am constantly popping my neck and vertebrae, knuckles, wrists, phalanx, feet myself. Popping your joints actually helps to lubricate them

Nope.

...does everyone else walk around like the tin man?

Are you suggesting that our bodies will not work properly without chiropractic adjustment? Makes you wonder just what the heck evolution was doing with us for the first several million years.

Also, a chiropractor (very nice man) met us at his office after hours one time and fixed my son's nurse maid's elbow...at no charge.

That is caused by a real dislocation (as opposed to a fake one), and is a component of medicine (as opposed to chiropractic). Nice that he was willing to practice medicine without a license, though.

Linda