Fukushima - It's Not Over

[Aepervius]

One hundred millisieverts per hour at a distance of 50 cm. However you can get that by converting from annual limits.

It is only 1.5 mSv of gamma, about 100 mSv of beta (i think, some article i read said alpha). The beta can provocate skin burn but AFAIR even big exposure limit the problem at epiderme/derme depth (not counting ingestion). So staying "near" the puddle isn't as dangerous as you might imagine.

 

[Aepervius]

Reduces the distance from which you can spot and triangulate. Given the area that the tank farm now covers and the finite resources available this is a problem.



The most dirrect counter example is probably the Oppau explosion. They didn't kill or even injure anyone until well ~500 died. You don't work on the basis that no one has been killed/injured yet. You work on the basis of what the hazard is and what control measures you have in place. Have you missed about 80 years worth of health and safety?

I am sorry but what's your point ? I think it is pretty clear that you assess risk for any plant, be it nuclear , or milk production. But this has nothing to do with evaluating the after effect we have right now with fukushima.

Oh and by the way , Bhopal made an incredible number of death. I am not aware of any assessment of nuclear plant which would reach that number of death (20000) unless completely exploding and completely spreading their "load" of their radio nucleide in the containment all over the landscape, something which is totally surrealistic.

Are you aware of such an assessement in UK ?

 

[bobdroege7]

Who has made this specific claim?

I don't know, but I find this quote, "Can you tell me how many workers have died from radiation exposure? " telling.

Though, suffering a heart attack while wearing suck-rubbers and ice-vests has nothing to do with the hazards of radiation. Killed from protective clothing.

Also, if anyone has any idea of the hazards of internal radiation exposure, they wouldn't be equivocating the hazards of potasium-40 and those isotopes released in the fukushima accident.

All radiation exposure is not the same.

And it sounds to me like the leaks aren't contained yet.

I think the message needs to be that the world can learn from this and Nuclear Power can be safe, not that it is safe and the fearmongerers need to shut up, cause radiation is safe and nuclear power is safer than coal.

World wide regulation at the Naval Reactors level of oversight at a minimum. Though I do like the idea of the Institute of Nuclear Power Operators, an operator funded spying on your competitors group in addition to the government funded Nuclear Regulatory Agency.

 

[Diogenes]

I don't know, but I find this quote, "Can you tell me how many workers have died from radiation exposure? " telling....

Which is a direct response to the claims that there's going to be or is an ongoing global impact of the very low amount of fission product release from this particular incident. If no radiation workers at the site have died from exposure or from exposure resulting from contamination how can we reasonably expect claims that fish from the Pacific are going to be unsafe to eat?

I've seen people even claim (not yet in this thread) that their immediate response with "disposable people" was that the temporary workers were receiving lethal doses when they were only really temporary because of receiving their safe exposure limit.

....
Also, if anyone has any idea of the hazards of internal radiation exposure, they wouldn't be equivocating the hazards of potasium-40 and those isotopes released in the fukushima accident.

...

You're right, of course, though it is difficult to explain accurately when the person you're responding to doesn't know the different between radiation and radioactive contamination, the difference between fission production and activation products or what the measured SI units from the site actually mean. You make a good point, though.

....

World wide regulation at the Naval Reactors level of oversight at a minimum. Though I do like the idea of the Institute of Nuclear Power Operators, an operator funded spying on your competitors group in addition to the government funded Nuclear Regulatory Agency.

That's interesting because I suppose I always guessed that we operated somewhere in the middle of expeditious and cautious, not having other standards to compare. Naval reactors being expected to operate under conditions other than ideal, in theory if not in real practice so far.

 

[BenBurch]

I believe that all nuclear reactors should operate under the same safety standards and the Naval Nuclear Power program.

As a nuclear safety engineer (long ago) I agree with that. Most of our operators came from the Navy.

 

[BenBurch]

No it isn't. They move stuff around by road.

...

That's a really, really bogus thing to worry about.

First, have you ever seen such a movement?

I have. They owned the interstate. The truck drove right down the middle flanked by a dozen squad cars from at least 4 sources.

And on the truck, one of these;

 

[r-j]

Which is a direct response to the claims that there's going to be or is an ongoing global impact of the very low amount of fission product release from this particular incident.

But that isn't the claim, or claims as it were, that we are discussing here. The bringing in of "the terrible coal problem" is also a red herring. But this time, no dog will be distracted.

 

[BenBurch]

But that isn't the claim, or claims as it were, that we are discussing here. The bringing in of "the terrible coal problem" is also a red herring. But this time, no dog will be distracted.

Too late.

Worrying about this incident when you have normal operations of coal plants putting more harmful radionuclides into the environment every single day than that whole plant ever will is the very definition of ridiculous.

 

[r-j]

You should tell TEPCO, the Japanese government, the Russians and US agencies who offered help, and especially the workers trying to stop the radioactive groundwater from breaching their barrier. Since you declared "Worrying about this incident ... is the very definition of ridiculous", I'm sure they will be relieved and stop worrying about it. Problem solved!

 

[ceptimus]

How many of them got sick or died from radiation poisoning again?

How many people had to leave their homes again? What area of farmland has been rendered unproductive again? How many schools have been abandoned again? How many factories again?

 

[Diogenes]

How many people had to leave their homes again? What area of farmland has been rendered unproductive again? How many schools have been abandoned again? How many factories again?

Citation?

 

[Corsair 115]

If no radiation workers at the site have died from exposure or from exposure resulting from contamination how can we reasonably expect claims that fish from the Pacific are going to be unsafe to eat?

It is interesting to me that there are already guidelines and warnings about how much to eat of certain fish due to mercury contamination. Yet that seems forgotten and much hand-wringing is done over possible radiation.

 

[r-j]

Yes, those silly Japanese, all worried about radiation in their food source. If only they knew that nobody was killed and coal is so much worse. Then they could go back to eating from the ocean around Fukushima again.

 

[Diogenes]

It is interesting to me that there are already guidelines and warnings about how much to eat of certain fish due to mercury contamination. Yet that seems forgotten and much hand-wringing is done over possible radiation.

That's a very good point. We already can't eat much local fish for that reason. From what I understand that's mostly from the coal industry.

 

[Corsair 115]

Yes, those silly Japanese, all worried about radiation in their food source.

Worry or concern is understandable. The key question is this: is that worry or concern commensurate with the actual level of health risk?

I think many of the posters here would submit the worry or concern is not commensurate with the actual health risk, and that the worry/concern greatly overstates the actual health risk. Especially when compared to other sources of radiation, or even other types of contamination (see my comment about mercury contamination in fish).

Hell, cigarettes are still legal to sell and consume, and we know the deleterious health effects those have.

 

[macdoc]

The irony is the worry and concern IS the health risk...thanks to the anti-nuke idjits.

There have been other health effects from the accident that are far more disturbing, mainly because they could have been prevented.
One effect has been an increase in stress related illnesses. The stress can be attributed to both fear of radiation and to the severe dislocation of people caused by government ordered evacuations.
Many of the peasants in the area near the Chernobyl power plant lived in the same village where their ancestors had lived for centuries. In some cases, they were evacuated without any belongings or other resources, even when there was little chance of being exposed to additional doses of radiation.
The fear of radiation is a natural result of years worth of intensive propaganda campaigns and a general lack of knowledge of recorded health effects. People generally fear things they do not understand, especially when they have been repeatedly told by authority figures that their fear is justified.
The level of reported stress or psychological impact also seems to have been affected by the government program designed to compensate the victims. People who claim to have been negatively affected are eligible for regular cash payments, medical care and for special assistance in housing and job placements. These incentives provide ample reason to blame poor health on radiation exposure from Chernobyl.

http://atomicinsights.com/chernobyl-health-effects-best-available-data/

 

[r-j]

The mindset of the people who write as if they already know everything is disturbing. It seems like the mindset that created this disaster in the first place. All during the early days of the crisis we heard this sort of thinking, which in essence never says anything to do with nuclear power is actually dangerous, coal is worse, and as long as nobody dies it's nothing to worry about.

If I bought into this sort of rose colored glasses thinking, certainly all would be well. Shucks, it turns out nothing can ever really go bad at a nuclear plant. No matter what. Containment buildings exploding, multiple core meltdowns, radiation causing evacuations, the ocean polluted with radiation, none of it is really a problem. It all gets diluted. Why is anyone even worried about a containment building in the first place? Even when the containment leaks like a sieve, and contaminated water pours into the ocean, it's not really a danger.

Why is anyone even doing anything about it? Just let the radiation pour into the ocean off the coast of japan, for decades. It's not dangerous.

So what if the ground is all soggy and soft and hundreds of giant barrels of highly radioactive water start deforming and leaking? It will just go into the ground, and the ocean. And since radioactive material from a reactor isn't as dangerous as coal pollution, just don't worry about it.

And here I was buying all this alarmists nonsense from the Japanese government, taking over the entire problem from TEPCO. And all these nuclear experts claiming it's a problem. They should listen to the JREF forum, then they can all go home and relax.

 

[r-j]

Worry or concern is understandable. The key question is this: is that worry or concern commensurate with the actual level of health risk?

No, the key question is how to stop this continuing disaster at Fukushima. That you, and clearly others, can't understand that, it's ridiculous.

 

[Diogenes]

Worry or concern is understandable....

He's an example of one that doesn't know the difference between radiation and contamination...hence now on /ignore.

 

[r-j]

The irony is the worry and concern IS the health risk...

If only those poor workers at the site could know this. They are worried and concerned about radiation! It's like a giant conspiracy! If only somebody could get the truth to them, they could be all relaxed and unconcerned.