From the Debate, Health Care System from Scratch

[Praktik]

This, my buddies, is why "single payer" is now part of the ongoing narrative by some politicians seeking power.

If it smells like socialism....

 

[JoeEllison]

If it smells like socialism....

...or even if it doesn't.

 

[Praktik]

By the way, see my .sig. Socialized medicine must increase, or at least keep the same, the rate of development of new treatments and cures. If it does not, it is murderous and helps no one in the long run.

Well, "murderous" is perhaps too strong a word, but I see what you're getting at.

I do think that the innovation currently in America should be safeguarded - but do the ideas being bandied about now (including single payer) really jeopardize that?

Or is this more of a line designed to scare people away from the Un-American idea of Socialized Medecine?

(and I'm not even sure that single-payer is akin to socialized medecine, see Ellison)

 

[Almo]

Social Security is another big one, as any illegal who works at a job that has money automatically diverted from their paycheck to Social Security is ineligible for benefits.

Not if they're paid in cash by employers who like to save money by employing illegal immigrants and not paying the SS tax...

 

[Almo]

double post

 

[Praktik]

Innovation

And is not the innovation nowadays - while albeit good in many ways - somewhat flawed? Im too lazy to look it up but I've come across material that claims that a large percentage of what's trumpeted as "innovation" is actually providing profit-driven products of marginal or questionable utility (ie, coming out with drugs with a few molecules changed to get a new patent, but that does the same thing, making a competing drug to something like Prozac or Viagra, that essentially does the same thing).

Now this is not to say that America is not the site of health care innovation, an engine that benefits the whole world with some of its discoveries. This is only to note that American innovation in this regard is not the panacea opponents of single-payer systems will claim it is - nor would it really be under threat from such a system.

Isn't this "engine" primarily in the Pharmaceutical and Medical Equipment Manufacturers sectors? Won't there still be demand for their products?

The only possible threat I see is maybe the government could negotiate for lower drug prices - but then - couldn't the Pharmaceutical Companies, in their oft-touted mission to to better our lives, simply take a few billion off their marketing budgets and still keep that head of steam going for R+D? Aren't universities often the site of much innovation - how would a single-payer system affect that?

At the very least, Americans should begin to realize that their employers desperately need some help - and that the troubles of companies like Ford in dealing with their employee's health care is leaving America at a competitive disadvantage.

Why locate in Pennsylvania when you can have the same level of education in your workforce in southern Ontario - but NOT have to pay all the bills of your workers?

 

[Tailgater]

My understanding is that the difference is that under a single payer system the government acts as insurer, and that's about it. By doing so, and having a "customer base" of 300,000,000 people, it can offer more services at a lower price. It works like the largest possible insurance company, except without executives and investors skimming a huge percentage off the top. It doesn't change the system of medicine, it just changes the way we pay for it.

"Socialized medicine", on the other hand, is where doctors are government employees, and hospitals are government-operated. Totally different ball of wax. By conflating the two, critics are engaged in flat-out dishonesty.

Ok, thanks for the straight answer. I thought it was something like that. It's truly hard to weigh the pros and cons of any choice. There is no easy button. Health care is important for me. I'm lower middle class, self-employed, family of four, so I'm responsible for supplying insurance myself. I fall into that not rich or poor enough area sometimes. A large part of healthcare is already an example of single payer through medicare and medicaid, no? R&D still has to be done to compete for the business of the patients using single payer, no? I would think a hybrid of single payer or private mandated insurance would be a start.

 

[MilwaukeeMike]

I bet humans will land on Mars before DC fixes the health care problem in the US!

 

[JoeEllison]

Ok, thanks for the straight answer. I thought it was something like that. It's truly hard to weigh the pros and cons of any choice. There is no easy button. Health care is important for me. I'm lower middle class, self-employed, family of four, so I'm responsible for supplying insurance myself. I fall into that not rich or poor enough area sometimes. A large part of healthcare is already an example of single payer through medicare and medicaid, no? R&D still has to be done to compete for the business of the patients using single payer, no? I would think a hybrid of single payer or private mandated insurance would be a start.

The way you get your insurance has no bearing on doctors or drug companies. I'm not sure why people insist on claiming that single payer will have an effect on drug company R&D, except because they are either being misleading, or have been misled. If anything, you'd think that everyone would support a single-payer program, on account of it would make billing easier, and would create millions of new customers.

BTW, have you looked into the SCHIP program for your state, to pay for your 17 kids to have insurance?

 

[Praktik]

If anything, you'd think that everyone would support a single-payer program, on account of it would make billing easier, and would create millions of new customers.

I hadn't thought of this - the lower prices negotiated by the government may be counterbalanced by the increased quantity of product from the ~40 million+ who are right now NOT getting drugs from private insurance (and this doesn't count the "under-insured" millions that may get drugs they can't get now) - maybe it would even negate the impact of lower prices.

Anyone see any number crunching on that?

 

[Tailgater]

The way you get your insurance has no bearing on doctors or drug companies. I'm not sure why people insist on claiming that single payer will have an effect on drug company R&D, except because they are either being misleading, or have been misled. If anything, you'd think that everyone would support a single-payer program, on account of it would make billing easier, and would create millions of new customers.

BTW, have you looked into the SCHIP program for your state, to pay for your 17 kids to have insurance?

17!! yikes!! I hope not.

I was laid off from my job a few years ago, got screwed on my severance package and couldn't afford cobra without bailing on other things. I had already started a side business that was starting to pick up, so I had a few months lapse in coverage while things got back on track, crossed my fingers that everything would be ok, and bought a plan with Blue Cross. Come to find out my daughter needed tonsils removed. She had tubes put in her ears when she was two for chronic ear infections, so Blue Cross denies the tonsil surgery and anything ear, nose and throat related (they approved her until the day before the surgery). I fought with the reps for hours explaining ears, nose and throat was the only thing wrong with just about every kid on the planet and this was bs. No deal. I was directed by the hospital to a place funded by the state and explained my situation. Long story short, I paid them a small premium to cover her for the next year and they paid for what my insurance would not. I've never been one to seek help unless I had too though, and I didn't like the way people treated us when we showed them a "state" card. It's possible this program was under SCHIP, but I'd have to research it.

 

[Donal]

Why is it whenever people talk about healthcare, the conversation on covers paying for things? How do we pay for surgery? How do we pay for medication?

Why not avoid surgery? Why not avoid medication?

How about we all lay off the friggin Big Macs and take up some exercise? How about we stop diagnosing everybody who is unhappy at work with clinical depression?

Why are we so damned surprised and angry healthcare costs so much? We got so damn lazy and complacent as a country that we invented a whole new medical journal of conditions and then we handed off the responsibility of treating us for them to a bunch of entities whose sole purpose is to make money.

Do you know who is driving up the cost of healthcare? It ain't the corporate honchos (not that they are angels in all of this, just opportunists). Its the obese morons in this country that can't stop sucking down Kool menthols.

Sorry, had to rant about it. I feel better now.


I don't like a single payer system because it doesn't seem to change anything other than adding another layer of bureaucracy. you are still dealing with the government.

And you all know that they will have to hire extra people and create more forms and filing fees.

 

[balrog666]

I bet humans will land on Mars before DC fixes the health care problem in the US!

What problem?

 

[New Ager]

Maybe racism...

No, it's racist to call someone racist without cause.

I'm all for legal immigration.

...and paranoia aabout illegal immigrants possibly isn't the answer, but more of a distraction from dealing with the problem?

12 million illegal immigrants isn't paranoia, it's a reality.

 

[Praktik]

I'm loving the poll results so far... that green bar is doing well!

 

[Earthborn]

Socialized medicine must increase, or at least keep the same, the rate of development of new treatments and cures.

Considering how much the United States government spends on medical research grants, I think it is fair to say that the US already has a socialised system of medical research and development. Probably moreso than many other countries.

 

[New Ager]

Undocumented immigrants....

No, it's "illegal" immigrants.

Why do liberals run from the reality?

I'd happily pay for health care through taxes.

Move to Europe. They'll happily take your money for inferior health care.

Get rid of the exploitive for profit insurance system...

Liberals think any thing that makes a profit is exploitive.

..and replace it with a system designed to provide for the actual needs of everyone.

In other words, get rid of capitalism and replace it with socialism.

Probably be a lot cheaper than what we have now. Course, new ager will say it won't work because socialism doesn't work because he said so.

No, it will incur a lot more taxes and a burdensome bureaucy. And socialism doesn't work.

Could you name the great Socialist countries of the 20th Century?

Therefore, obviously Europe does not exist, since they have functional economies and socialized medicine.

Which don't work. They are overburdened with taxes and have inferior healthcare whereas the US has the best healthcare in the world.

 

[New Ager]

That's exactly it.

Socialism is the Next Step to Communism, and Un-American (as New Ager's post demonstrates).

Yep.

These ideas are essentially excluded from the political continuum, due to the way America developed historically.

Not so. They are trumpeted by leftwing kooks here all the time, but we've been smart enough to fend them off.

The spectrum is truncated - and ideas alien to the American tradition stand no chance of inclusion.

Especially the ones that don't work.

This means anything close to socialist health care will be off-the-table...

You got it. It's why we are the greatest country in the world and the rest aren't.

It will be at least decades, and probably longer (if ever) before America can accept such a health care system.

That would be never. We don't need government taking care of us like Europe does.

 

[New Ager]

Billdave and Beerina,

Great posts. I think between us we have exposed the silliness of national health care.

Good job.

 

[SezMe]

They are overburdened with taxes and have inferior healthcare whereas the US has the best healthcare in the world.

An interesting claim that is contradicted by the statistics I've seen. Care to back up this claim?