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Freeway Sign

Patrick

Graduate Poster
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Jul 3, 2004
Messages
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On the freeways of los angeles county, there are some big clunky old electronic signs that are supposed to give drivers a heads up about trouble further down the road, with messages like "105 East jammed - Take 91". One time I saw a message that said "This is a test message." I remember from logic that there are problems with self referencing assertions, such as the assertion "This statement is false", which in a naive way can appear to be "provable" as neither true or false, using the method of proof by contradiction (if I remember all that correctly).
I think the freeway statement, which I think may be in the same general category of assertions, is "apparently" paradoxical. It appears to be an entity which contains it's own definition. But if that's true, then its definition contains it's definition. Then its definition must contain its definition which must contain its definition. Since this leds to a definition of infinite length, then that means there's no defintion attainable for the message, which means no one can know what it means. They should replace it with e.g. "The following is a test message: Little Miss Muffet...sat on a tuffet...eating her curds and whey... Along came a spider...and sat down beside her...and said 'What's in the bowl, biitch?' - ADC" - right?
 
If I remember correctly there are 3 types of paradoxes (pardoxi?) veridical, falsidical and antonomical. You have just described a veridical paradox. One that seems to be paradoxical but is in fact true.

A reasonable definition of test message is any message that can be easily verified, and does not have a inherent information content beyond that (i.e. such as informing people about traffic conditions).

If the above definition is taken as true, then any simple message (such as "12345") would do as a test message. However "!#!@$^*&^%(KAFLBDA" would probably not be useful as it can't be easily verified as exactly the set message.

The thing is though, that a test message is not an assertion. Unless you are willing to count
Little Miss Muffet...sat on a tuffet...eating her curds and whey... Along came a spider...and sat down beside her...and said 'What's in the bowl, biitch?
as one too.
 
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wittgenst3in said:
If I remember correctly there are 3 types of paradoxes (pardoxi?) veridical, falsidical and antonomical. You have just described a veridical paradox. One that seems to be paradoxical but is in fact true.


You're referencing Quine here, right? The third sort is an antinomy (ie, a paradox that reveals an underlying contradiction in your system). It's all from his excellent essay "The Ways of Paradox", which is a really fun introduction to philosophic problems, if nothing else.
 
Eleatic Stranger said:


You're referencing Quine here, right? The third sort is an antinomy (ie, a paradox that reveals an underlying contradiction in your system). It's all from his excellent essay "The Ways of Paradox", which is a really fun introduction to philosophic problems, if nothing else. [/B]

I wasn't aware of the source, but I picked up the idea from the wikipedia article here . (Which has since gotten ten times as large as when I first read it. )

I'll have to keep my eyes open for that essay, sound nifty.
 
383578.1.jpg


The interesting case would be if it said "Don't Obey This Sign". Then if you obeyed the sign, you wouldn't obey the sign, in which case you would obey the sign, in which case you wouldn't obey the sign ...................
 
Patrick, I suddenly realised during the day that your system is in fact logically consistent. (If one assumes that the sign is making a assertion.) So disregard my ramblings.
 
Originally posted by Patrick

The interesting case would be if it said "Don't Obey This Sign".
Reminds me of a book that was popular some years ago, titled: "Steal this book". Which reminds me of another fine sign idea: "$25 reward for information regarding the theft of this sign"
Originally posted by wittgenst3in

...So disregard my ramblings.
Please disregard my contributions also, including this one.
 
The "Obey This Sign" sign is very real. I used to live about 5 houses from where the sign was located (the sign has since been moved from where the picture was taken). Redwood City, California bought a bunch of unorthodox signs (mostly of the "Speeding Tickets Offered Ahead" or "Will your speed kill a child today?" variety) and rotates them around the city. I havn't seen the "Obey" sign recently - it might have been stolen.
 
Reminds me of a book that was popular some years ago, titled: "Steal this book"

That was by Abbie Hoffman, the famous Vietnam War activist of the 1960's and 1970's - a man of great wit. During the "Chicago Seven" trial, he brought a cake into the courtroom for the birthday of another defendant, Bobby Seale. When the bailiffs took it out, Hoffman said in mock alarm "Bobby! They're busting your cake!". During sentencing, Hoffman said "What's a nice jewish boy like me doing here?". The judge, Jules Hoffman, no relation and also jewish, broke out laughing for the first time in the trial. During the war, many administration people repeated the claim that in vietnam, they were "fighting for peace", to which Abbie replied "Fighting for peace is like f__King for virginity." :D
 

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