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Merged Freefall is not evidence for Controlled Demolition

Ozzie,

This statement is self serving a bit there mate. You can't stop a debate by declaring there is only one side...
:D

Now where did I try to stop "debate" by declaring that there is only one side?

However if you are saying that there is another side of reasoned supported or supportable argument - just quote or link me to the truther hypothesis that makes a reasoned claim for CD....

...it could well be that I've missed it...and missed all the fanfare when it was published. ;)
 
...
This statement is self serving a bit there mate. You can't stop a debate by declaring there is only one side... ...

There is only one side, it is called reality. CD is not a side, it is a mental illness, immaturity, or stupidity.

Be neat if David sourced the Path of least resistance law? It seems to be the path 911 truth uses to invent fantasy. The path of most resistance, calculus, physics, and science, is the path 911 truth never takes.

The debate is in the minds of 911 truth followers, who declare victory and run away. They should switch to Bigfoot, it would be more respectful of those lost on 911.

Maybe you can help David get out of woo, like you did with A&E.
http://www.opednews.com/Diary/9-11-How-many-virtual-pro-by-David-Watts-080324-705.html
Hard to debate this fantasy. It is self debunking
 
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There is only one side, it is called reality. CD is not a side, it is a mental illness, immaturity, or stupidity.

Be neat if David sourced the Path of least resistance law? It seems to be the path 911 truth uses to invent fantasy. The path of most resistance, calculus, physics, and science, is the path 911 truth never takes.

The debate is in the minds of 911 truth followers, who declare victory and run away. They should switch to Bigfoot, it would be more respectful of those lost on 911.

Maybe you can help David get out of woo, like you did with A&E.
http://www.opednews.com/Diary/9-11-How-many-virtual-pro-by-David-Watts-080324-705.html
Hard to debate this fantasy. It is self debunking

Understood... but the truthers don't realize that they have to advance a coherent comprehensive *argument*/case or there is no debate. What they like to do is point out some *anomaly* which they don't understand how it could relate to the building collapses and base their position on the notion of incredulity. They don't understand... they are incredulous ergo it was an inside job / CD because only an inside job or CD could possibly produce what they perceive as anomalies. "I don't understand" is not a basis for declaring 9/11 an inside job / CD.
 
:D

Now where did I try to stop "debate" by declaring that there is only one side?

My take is that you declared that one 'side' of a many sided debate , was not worth debating given that that 'side' presents little to no reasoned and anywhere near, detailed an argument.

Major Tom, femr2, JSO, have all put forth substantial and reasonable arguements even if at times peppered with some less than objective personal comments.

NIST is a starting point. The NIST reports represent a base level of detail and research that would have to be brought forth in order to be worthy of debate.

NIST did not go into detail in some characteriztics that the 'truth' movement declare significant, molten metal and collapse acceleration because NIST concluded they were not worthy of such detail. Others took up that challenge, femr, MT for instance, and produced research at least as detailed as NIST did on other aspects. The 'truth' movement has been all but absent in this level of research, though some may argue that the testing of the dust might rise to that level, yet even on that issue, and its never been adequately explained how it would mesh with a CD scenario anyway, they utterly refuse to acknowledge any issues with their work or conclusions.
 
My take is that you declared that one 'side' of a many sided debate , was not worth debating given that that 'side' presents little to no reasoned and anywhere near, detailed an argument.
Check the original context of my statement - it was a summary explanation for david.watts. Do you suggest that I should have advised david.watts of all the valid arguments that the truth movement has put forward? Should I list them for him?
Major Tom, femr2, JSO, have all put forth substantial and reasonable arguements even if at times peppered with some less than objective personal comments.
I don't regard any of them as truthers or members of the truth movement. So I would not list them as reasoned contributions from the truth movement. Nor would I regard their positive contributions on some details as somehow forming a "second side" confronting - in opposition to:
...the main tenets of the accepted explanation - the so called "official story"...
NIST is a starting point. The NIST reports represent a base level of detail and research that would have to be brought forth in order to be worthy of debate.
My position is simple - adopted in my first days of internet posting ~Nov 2007 - I don't rely on NIST reasoning. I will call on their data when it is useful. My position is identical to LSSBB on these points:
I come to my conclusion independent of the NIST report. I by no means think it is perfect, ....and FEMR2 is right and they did a poor job of deeply analyzing the collapse imagery.

That said, I see their conclusion as plausible, and have yet to see anything that significantly overturns that...
NIST did not go into detail in some characteriztics that the 'truth' movement declare significant, molten metal and collapse acceleration because NIST concluded they were not worthy of such detail. Others took up that challenge, femr, MT for instance, and produced research at least as detailed as NIST did on other aspects. The 'truth' movement has been all but absent in this level of research, though some may argue that the testing of the dust might rise to that level, yet even on that issue, and its never been adequately explained how it would mesh with a CD scenario anyway, they utterly refuse to acknowledge any issues with their work or conclusions.
My comment was about what the truth movement has not done - not about what others have done. :)
 
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... "I don't understand" is not a basis for declaring 9/11 an inside job / CD.

There is the problem, 911 truth posters don't know they "don't understand". They think they know what happened, in this case is it CD. They pick up the silly nonsense, like "path of least resistance", "own footprint", "concrete all dust", "ppm", etc, and they are on a crusade of posting the truth, a religion of woo, a disciple for truth, justice, and fantasy.

David Watts thinks he is right, puts all who reject his CD in the same boat of NIST followers, not knowing the conclusion of no CD is based on evidence, not MSM conclusions, not NIST conclusions, but evidence.

David must be using google to look up 911, and the majority of stuff is nonsense published by 911 truthers who fail to check what they post for evidence.

I made some posts about five years ago. Some of the points I made were no doubt at least imprecise. For example, when I say that the collapse of WTC7 was "perfectly symmetrical" that indeed is not precise. Therefore I 'exaggerated' at least to some extent. And I believe I did it to make a point, at least for those unfamiliar with 7 to try to get them to at least look at it. But, I still contend it was only a slight exaggeration. When the faces that we can see and the roof and roofline collapsed, it was impressively symmetrical for a significant period. I understand that the further 7 fell the less symmetrical it became.

David lies to make a point, to push his agenda of CD. He has no clue what happened, he googled up stuff, sounded good, adopts the lies, and spreads them at OpEdNews - where the big lie is the truth.
 
Some want me to state things wrong with the NIST report. I copy and pasted the following from, of course, ae911truth. How do you treat the following:


NIST used numerous unscientific methods and fraudulent inputs to get the key girder to fail in its computer simulation.

NIST arbitrarily added 10% to the temperature results of its fire dynamics simulation (FDS)

To get the shear studs on the floor beams to fail, NIST assumed high steel temperatures and applied the heat in 1-1/2 seconds over the entire north east part of floor 13. This method does not allow for heat dispersal or beam sagging.

NIST heated the floor beams, but not the slab. Since concrete expands at 85% the rate of steel, leaving this expansion out of the calculations of the failure of the shear studs is fraudulent.

NIST failed to account for beam sag that would have prevented the floor beams from expanding lengthwise more than 4.75 inches.

Thermal expansion would cause the bottom flange to expand more than the top flange, forcing the beam to bow downward. The NIST hypothesis does not allow for downward bowing.

9/11 researcher David Cole went through the hundreds of drawings and found drawing 1091 which shows the girder seat was 12 inches wide (as noted above), not the 11 inches claimed in the final report. He also found drawing 9114, which shows flange stiffeners at the column 79 end of the girder between column 44 and 79.

NIST omitted these flange stiffeners that would have prevented the bottom flange from folding as required for their collapse to begin. The girder would have to be pushed almost all the way off the seat, not just half way, before the bottom flange would buckle

NIST’s drawing of column 79 omits flange stiffeners that would have prevented the girder's failure

Even those who have accepted the official story must acknowledge that NIST’s misstatements of its own report are not mistakes. They are bending the facts to accommodate a theory that cannot, so to speak, stand up.

Structural engineer Ron Brookman found that the Salvarinas “Fabrication and Construction Aspects” a document that outlines the basic structural system of WTC 7, shows 30 shear studs on the girder in question.

Davin Coburn, editor/researcher for Popular Mechanics, told Charles Goyette in this radio interview that he had seen a photo of the 10-story gouge
Coburn: "When the North Tower collapsed … there was damage to Building 7 … What we found out was … about 25% of the building’s south face had been carved away from it …"
“We have seen pictures that are property of the NY Police Department and various other governmental agencies that we were not given permission to disseminate …”
Goyette: "Popular Mechanics got to see them, but the average American citizen can’t see them."
Coburn: "Correct."

Shyam Sunder misinforms Popular Mechanics in the article “Debunking The 9/11 Myths” by telling the writers that there was a fire on floor five of WTC7 that lasted up to seven hours. There was no fire reported on that floor and no reason to think there was one.

We read of NIST’s contention that heat had caused five 13th floor beams, framing into a long span girder, to expand.* They said that 5.5” was enough to push the girder across its 11” seat on column 79 beyond the vertical web, so that the lower flange of the girder became exposed to the entire weight of that floor area. NIST said that the flange could not support that load and folded upwards.

We further noted that NIST said that the 5.5” expansion was the maximum possible expansion. This is because any additional heating would soften the beam, leading to sagging rather than any greater pushing.

Thus NIST’s claim of an 11” beam seat and the maximum push of 5.5” were inextricably interwoven. Both had to be true for NIST's explanation to work. When NIST was notified last year about the seat width discrepancy, they issued an erratum document admitting this error in June 2012. *

However, in that same document they went on to say that they had also spotted another error, and added another paragraph to their erratum document. They claimed that a ‘typographical error’ had been made and that the 5.5" distance should have been 6.25".* Apparently they had transposed two figures, said to be axial and lateral expansion figures, and this new erratum document simply reversed them.

With the beam seat confirmed at 12” wide and the newly required sideways movement 6.25”, they nevertheless stood by their original theory.

Now that the newly required sideways shift distance of 6.25” was confirmed for the acknowledged 12”-wide girder seat, NIST’s earlier contention concerning the maximum heat (600° C.) before the beams would sag would come into question.

In our earlier videos we presented our carefully calculated findings that at the temperature required to expand by 6.25”, the beam would indeed have lost much of its strength, and would certainly be sagging rather than pushing the girder.

Yet another careless error by NIST was found. While discussing how we should raise this subject with NIST, a member of our team made another startling discovery which moved the entire debate into new territory. Upon close examination of the connection between Column 79 and the girder – a connection that NIST claimed failed – he spotted another steel element in the drawing that had not been previously mentioned. “Stiffener plates” were specified at the end of the girder and welded in place to both sides of the web and to the bottom flange.

NIST’s failure to show these stiffeners or take them into account in its analysis is yet another area where the omissions and incorrect statements are so egregious, anyone who understands these issues must by now begin to question NIST’s motives.

When we mentioned these stiffeners to mechanical engineer Tony Szamboti, who is involved in structural design in his professional work, he explained their role in such situations. He went on to say “The discovery of the girder stiffener plates in drawing #9114 is a game changer, because this drawing covers the exact location where NIST says the collapse initiated.”

Basically, these stiffeners brace the end of a girder between the lower load-bearing flange and its vertical web, so that if for any reason the girder did move laterally on its seat, the flange can transmit the extra load to that web and not fold upwards. In effect they make an I-beam end almost*into a "box" section.

This*discovery changes the debate. Whether the girder travel was 5.5” or 6.25” was now irrelevant because even at up to a 9” lateral move, that girder end would still have enough strength to remain*on its seat.*(It should be remembered that the girder was also held in place vertically by the five attached beams that were framed into it, and therefore the girder could not tip over sideways either – as was also postulated by NIST.)

The presence of these stiffener plates was brought to NIST’s attention by structural engineers. The lack of response from NIST has been*deafening, until just a few weeks ago.

On October 25, 2013, NIST replied to questions about the failure to include the stiffeners in many figures in the final WTC 7 report. They did acknowledge that they had consulted Frankel shop drawing #9114, but claimed:

“The web stiffeners shown at the end of the girder in Frankel drawing #9114 prevent web crippling. The structural analyses of WTC 7 did not show any web crippling failures. Therefore, the web crippling plates did not need to be included in the models/analyses.”
 
Some want me to state things wrong with the NIST report. I copy and pasted the following from, of course, ae911truth. How do you treat the following:


NIST used numerous unscientific methods and fraudulent inputs to get the key girder to fail in its computer simulation.

NIST arbitrarily added 10% to the temperature results of its fire dynamics simulation (FDS)

To get the shear studs on the floor beams to fail, NIST assumed high steel temperatures and applied the heat in 1-1/2 seconds over the entire north east part of floor 13. This method does not allow for heat dispersal or beam sagging.

NIST heated the floor beams, but not the slab. Since concrete expands at 85% the rate of steel, leaving this expansion out of the calculations of the failure of the shear studs is fraudulent.

NIST failed to account for beam sag that would have prevented the floor beams from expanding lengthwise more than 4.75 inches.

Thermal expansion would cause the bottom flange to expand more than the top flange, forcing the beam to bow downward. The NIST hypothesis does not allow for downward bowing.

9/11 researcher David Cole went through the hundreds of drawings and found drawing 1091 which shows the girder seat was 12 inches wide (as noted above), not the 11 inches claimed in the final report. He also found drawing 9114, which shows flange stiffeners at the column 79 end of the girder between column 44 and 79.

NIST omitted these flange stiffeners that would have prevented the bottom flange from folding as required for their collapse to begin. The girder would have to be pushed almost all the way off the seat, not just half way, before the bottom flange would buckle

NIST’s drawing of column 79 omits flange stiffeners that would have prevented the girder's failure

Even those who have accepted the official story must acknowledge that NIST’s misstatements of its own report are not mistakes. They are bending the facts to accommodate a theory that cannot, so to speak, stand up.

Structural engineer Ron Brookman found that the Salvarinas “Fabrication and Construction Aspects” a document that outlines the basic structural system of WTC 7, shows 30 shear studs on the girder in question.

Davin Coburn, editor/researcher for Popular Mechanics, told Charles Goyette in this radio interview that he had seen a photo of the 10-story gouge
Coburn: "When the North Tower collapsed … there was damage to Building 7 … What we found out was … about 25% of the building’s south face had been carved away from it …"
“We have seen pictures that are property of the NY Police Department and various other governmental agencies that we were not given permission to disseminate …”
Goyette: "Popular Mechanics got to see them, but the average American citizen can’t see them."
Coburn: "Correct."

Shyam Sunder misinforms Popular Mechanics in the article “Debunking The 9/11 Myths” by telling the writers that there was a fire on floor five of WTC7 that lasted up to seven hours. There was no fire reported on that floor and no reason to think there was one.

We read of NIST’s contention that heat had caused five 13th floor beams, framing into a long span girder, to expand.* They said that 5.5” was enough to push the girder across its 11” seat on column 79 beyond the vertical web, so that the lower flange of the girder became exposed to the entire weight of that floor area. NIST said that the flange could not support that load and folded upwards.

We further noted that NIST said that the 5.5” expansion was the maximum possible expansion. This is because any additional heating would soften the beam, leading to sagging rather than any greater pushing.

Thus NIST’s claim of an 11” beam seat and the maximum push of 5.5” were inextricably interwoven. Both had to be true for NIST's explanation to work. When NIST was notified last year about the seat width discrepancy, they issued an erratum document admitting this error in June 2012. *

However, in that same document they went on to say that they had also spotted another error, and added another paragraph to their erratum document. They claimed that a ‘typographical error’ had been made and that the 5.5" distance should have been 6.25".* Apparently they had transposed two figures, said to be axial and lateral expansion figures, and this new erratum document simply reversed them.

With the beam seat confirmed at 12” wide and the newly required sideways movement 6.25”, they nevertheless stood by their original theory.

Now that the newly required sideways shift distance of 6.25” was confirmed for the acknowledged 12”-wide girder seat, NIST’s earlier contention concerning the maximum heat (600° C.) before the beams would sag would come into question.

In our earlier videos we presented our carefully calculated findings that at the temperature required to expand by 6.25”, the beam would indeed have lost much of its strength, and would certainly be sagging rather than pushing the girder.

Yet another careless error by NIST was found. While discussing how we should raise this subject with NIST, a member of our team made another startling discovery which moved the entire debate into new territory. Upon close examination of the connection between Column 79 and the girder – a connection that NIST claimed failed – he spotted another steel element in the drawing that had not been previously mentioned. “Stiffener plates” were specified at the end of the girder and welded in place to both sides of the web and to the bottom flange.

NIST’s failure to show these stiffeners or take them into account in its analysis is yet another area where the omissions and incorrect statements are so egregious, anyone who understands these issues must by now begin to question NIST’s motives.

When we mentioned these stiffeners to mechanical engineer Tony Szamboti, who is involved in structural design in his professional work, he explained their role in such situations. He went on to say “The discovery of the girder stiffener plates in drawing #9114 is a game changer, because this drawing covers the exact location where NIST says the collapse initiated.”

Basically, these stiffeners brace the end of a girder between the lower load-bearing flange and its vertical web, so that if for any reason the girder did move laterally on its seat, the flange can transmit the extra load to that web and not fold upwards. In effect they make an I-beam end almost*into a "box" section.

This*discovery changes the debate. Whether the girder travel was 5.5” or 6.25” was now irrelevant because even at up to a 9” lateral move, that girder end would still have enough strength to remain*on its seat.*(It should be remembered that the girder was also held in place vertically by the five attached beams that were framed into it, and therefore the girder could not tip over sideways either – as was also postulated by NIST.)

The presence of these stiffener plates was brought to NIST’s attention by structural engineers. The lack of response from NIST has been*deafening, until just a few weeks ago.

On October 25, 2013, NIST replied to questions about the failure to include the stiffeners in many figures in the final WTC 7 report. They did acknowledge that they had consulted Frankel shop drawing #9114, but claimed:

“The web stiffeners shown at the end of the girder in Frankel drawing #9114 prevent web crippling. The structural analyses of WTC 7 did not show any web crippling failures. Therefore, the web crippling plates did not need to be included in the models/analyses.”

OMG the dam has burst, we're gonna be drowned in deja vu.
 
Some want me to state things wrong with the NIST report. I copy and pasted the following from, of course, ae911truth. How do you treat the following:
....”
You are gullible. Proof is the post.

You don't remember NIST cause is a probable cause, but Gage cause is a delusional idiotic fantasy. Good luck with that.

Who needs the NIST report? People like Gage so he can make gullible people believe the lies he gathers, and they donate money, and last year he made 500,000 dollars from fools who can't think for themselves.

Go to 60 Minutes with your long "plagiarized" list of woo, and see how they laugh at it.

I like the no fire on a floor in a building on fire, and nobody was in the building. It was not reported because? Hint: no one was in the building. Do 911 truth followers get money for reposting lies, woo, fantasy, and nonsense? Is this a joke?

12 years of failure - Don't need NIST to know fire did it.
 
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You missed some text off the end David ;)

Please Help Us Carry This Vital Work Forward

We invite qualified individuals worldwide to join us as we continue to expose incorrect statements by NIST in the effort to trigger the initiation of a genuine investigation of the total, near-free-fall destruction of all three WTC towers on 9/11. Anyone who can read blueprints, edit audio or video, make and/or analyze engineering calculations, or write and edit, is encouraged to volunteer to help us.

In addition, AE911Truth is seeking funding for various legal actions connected to the NIST reports, such as lawsuits under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), claims against the validity of the NIST Reports, and the like. To make a donation to support this vital area of our work, please visit the AE911Truth Donations page, or call the office at 510-292-4710 and leave a message.

Note: You do NOT have to have a PayPal account to use PayPal to process your credit card payment. After you complete the brief donation form and select the PayPal option, click Submit and then click the link that says “Don’t have a PayPal Account?” (if you choose to “Donate this time only”) or “credit or debit card” (if you choose to “Become a monthly sustaining supporter”). If you choose to “Become a member of AE911Truth,” the PayPal option is not available, but you can still donate with a credit card, and use the Comments field to let us know that you would like your membership donations to be used to support our legal efforts.
 
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Check the original context of my statement - it was a summary explanation for david.watts. Do you suggest that I should have advised david.watts of all the valid arguments that the truth movement has put forward? Should I list them for him?
Not saying you should do that. Merely pointing out that you criticized the TM for not having a valid position or having produced anything substantial to debate.

I don't regard any of them as truthers or members of the truth movement. So I would not list them as reasoned contributions from the truth movement. Nor would I regard their positive contributions on some details as somehow forming a "second side" confronting - in opposition to:
Right, they are contributors who have presented detailed research, on various individual aspects of the 9/11 events, at a level the TM has utterly failed to equal. My point was they are examples of the level of research the TM needs in order to actually enter a debate. You may not characterize the threads by MT, JSO, or femr2 as 'debate' , but many would. At the very least though they are 'discussions' of their work.

My position is simple - adopted in my first days of internet posting ~Nov 2007 - I don't rely on NIST reasoning. I will call on their data when it is useful. My position is identical to LSSBB on these points:
Mine was slightly different. I viewed NIST's reports as being pretty well done, their hypotheses reasonable, and came to look upon some aspects as requiring modification or more work, as I delved into individual issues.
is. NIST was a starting point.

My comment was about what the truth movement has not done - not about what others have done. :)
My comment was about what the TM has not done, and illustrating what they need to do by giving examples of what others have done.
 
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A quick response to post 587 is to point out that merely finding issue with NIST , or Popular Science, is not what AE911T needs to do. If it wishes to push another cause for collapse then it needs to do research to demonstrate that!

In addition the above contains at least one bit of misinformation: Sunder did NOT tell PM that there WAS diesel fuel fires on the fifth floor. In fact, after the interview the final report came out specifically stating the they found no evidence of such a fire and thus did not pursue any scenario for collapse that would have had such a fire as the proximate cause of structural failure. Sunder was discussing the interim report which outlined that NIST would look for evidence of this liquid fuel fed fire, and the implications if such a fire was established as having occurred. AE911T does not bother to relate any of that , instead conflating what the article quotes him saying and what the article's author opines.
 
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"Some want me to state things wrong with the NIST report."

So I did.
Posting Gage's propaganda is posting what is wrong with Gage. Gage tells the big lie, a technique he learned from Hitler. People who con people learn from the best, or is the worse? You used that quote too with some of your exaggerations about 911, lies about 911, the big lie stuff.

http://www.opednews.com/Diary/9-11-Dilemma--WTC7--NIS-by-David-Watts-080207-490.html wow, when will you fix this? You can't, OpEdNews believes in 911 truth, they love to spread lies about 911. There is money in selling lies, spreading nonsense, and being as anti-intellectual as they can be.

You are part of the big lies about 911, OpEdNews is pushing the big lie, to make it the truth. Gage makes 300,000 to 500,000 dollars a year selling he "big lies" about 911, and his hook is asking for a new investigating. How do I know Gage is nonsense? Gage told me, his claims are self-debunking for anyone who uses knowledge over opinions, facts over hearsay, reality over fantasy. You either know you are spreading lies, or are in for a great moment of awareness. Like hypoxia, looking at the muted colors of a color wheel, and then taking a breath of pure oxygen, waking up your eyes and brain to see color, rich and saturated. Maybe you will wake up to reality of 911, when you breath in the oxygen of knowledge, logic, and critical thinking.

After spending some time at ground level with lights off and oxygen masks removed, we went up to 10,000 feet. After a short time at this altitude, we were each handed a large color wheel. We were able to see the various segments on the color wheel, but the colors themselves were nearly indistinguishable, appearing only as shades of gray. Upon command, we donned our oxygen masks. Two or three breaths of oxygen worked like magic! The colors became vividly apparent along with detail many of us had previously been unable to see. It was an impressive demonstration of how flight at 10,000 feet adversely affected our night vision even after a short amount of time. http://avstop.com/medical/anencountewithhypoxia.htm
Color Wheel
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...1c.1.32.img..0.1.70.Z9IzWiqrd1E&q=color wheel


Have you found the source for you special "path of least resistance law"?
 
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"Some want me to state things wrong with the NIST report."

So I did.
Shame david. We don't need another parrot for Gage.


It will be much easier for you to work through what really happened than for us - jointly or severally - to tediously respond to all those bits of outright lies, partial truths or lies by innuendo.

Many of those comments refer to the Col 79 Girder walk off explanation. AFAICS they all suffer from one very simple error in the underlying assumptions. That error means that the claims are not proven. I showed T Szamboti the error in his claims in an extended thread. Many other members falsified various parts of that same overall issue.

AND - even if Szamboti, AE911 et all were correct - it does not prove CD. The old false dichotomy problem.
 
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Some want me to state things wrong with the NIST report. I copy and pasted the following from, of course, ae911truth. How do you treat the following:

Seriously? That's 'your' argument? This isn't your idea, your writing, your analysis.

Most of that is OT to the OP, as I warned you: 'Freefall is not evidence for Controlled Demolition' That's the subject of this thread.

You have no hypothesis to put forward, backed by any evidence. No better or worse than any other 9/11 Truth conspiracy believer - there is no other tangible alternative hypothesis based on engineering or reality.

C'mon David, if we want to talk to a parrot we can go to the pet store.
 
I admit it was a fair bit to go through but I could not find, in the last few pages, who asked for a list of what's wrong with NIST.
Who done dat?

Not likely to be me given my pedantic obsession with...err preference that we not mix "Was NIST wrong?" with debate about the realities of collapse mechanisms.






:runaway
 

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