• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Freefall is not evidence for Controlled Demolition

Oystein said:
- They claim it fell "through the path of greatest resistance" - there is no evidence for this
Click to expand...
Not to mention there is no evidence that this has any physics meaning whatsoever. Defy any ct to find this phrase in a physics text. Anyone?

:boxedin:
 
sylvan8798 said:
Not to mention there is no evidence that this has any physics meaning whatsoever. Defy any ct to find this phrase in a physics text. Anyone?

:boxedin:
Click to expand...

quite true..probably using the more dumbed down version so the common guy might understand it. If you start going into principles of least action and such then most people nod off.
 
lexicon008 said:
"I don't have to prove anything. The point is to prove that the observed behavior can only be explained by controlled demolition. "

you win..it can't

"If you cannot do that, then the observed behavior cannot be used as evidence of controlled demolition"

not entirely true. The behaviour can't ONLY be explained by CD, other things could cause it, but CD could certainly cause the behaviour and therefore the behaviour could be consistent with CD.
Click to expand...

If the observed behavior can be explained by CD and by not-CD, it is not evidence for CD. If it can be explained by not-CD and by CD, it is not evidence for not-CD. I am not claiming the observed evidence as evidence for not-CD, I am discounting it as evidence for CD above any other alternative.
 
LSSBB said:
If the observed behavior can be explained by CD and by not-CD, it is not evidence for CD. If it can be explained by not-CD and by CD, it is not evidence for not-CD. I am not claiming the observed evidence as evidence for not-CD, I am discounting it as evidence for CD above any other alternative.
Click to expand...



There is a thing in forensics called equivocal evidence... evidence that supports more than one theory.

since the behaviour in question can be explained by both cd and non-cd it is equivocal and can't be used to rule in or out the other theory by itself.

but i digress..i agree that free fall = CD is not supported.
 
lexicon008 said:
There is a thing in forensics called equivocal evidence... evidence that supports more than one theory.

since the behaviour in question can be explained by both cd and non-cd it is equivocal and can't be used to rule in or out the other theory by itself.

but i digress..i agree that free fall = CD is not supported.
Click to expand...
thumbup.gif
 
lexicon008, it is a refreshing change to encounter a poster here who at least sympathizes with, or assigns a significant likelihood to, 9/11 "Truth" claims of CD and who is able to hold differentiated views on single topics, agreeing with counterclaims when those seem well supported.
Thanks for that.

lexicon008 said:
i guess that depends on your definition of rapid and when you feel the collapse started.
Click to expand...
Correct. What Gage really is writing about it the collapse of the north wall, which, I'd agree, started to collapse "rapidly" - its roof edge went from rest[*] to around g within about a second.

But this was obviosly preceded by several seconds of gradual collapse progression, from the columns underneath the east penthouse, progressing west.

[*] Note: Femr2, who probably has done the most accurate measurement of the movement of the WTC7 northwall, and also some features of the twins (far superior to the work of Chandler or NIST) detected an instability more than a minute before the east penthouse fell, which showed itself in an oszillation which wasn't there before. This is in line with the even earlier observations of FDNY members that the building was moving.

lexicon008 said:
agreed, there is very little in terms of sound evidence..but..most CDs are not done on a complete in use structure. They remove much of the materials that could dampen sound such as drywall, roofing, carpeting, furniture etc. They have preweakened the walls and floors. But I admit this does tend to argue against CD since with no preweakenig you should really need more explosives..unless you preweaken with the thermite;)
Click to expand...
All agreed.
And there is no evidence for the presence, let alone use, of thermite (thermite is my pet topic here, I can teach you all about it, particularly why the red-gray chips cannot possibly be "thermitic", but that would derail this thread).

lexicon008 said:
agreed
Click to expand...
Thx.

lexicon008 said:
well again that depends on your terminology here. They cannot really prove it was the path of greatest resistance since resistance of the structure was not measured at the time of collapse so yes they are technically wrong. I think the point here was that it is unusual for a structure such as this to collapse through itself and not tip over say.
Click to expand...
It's pretty sad when a group that pretends to be of technical professionals doesn't define its terms, wouldn't you say?

The idea that the towers ought to have tipped over is really very silly and unbecoming of engineers or architects. Tipping over would mean that the center of gravity of the top part of a tower would have to be shifted by 100-200 feet within a very short time (less than, say, 5 seconds). Where so you imagine the momentum for such a move could come from? This would have to get offset by an equal but opposite momentum imparted in the lower part. This is Wiley Coyote physics - has nothing to do with reality.

All it takes for the north wall to descent essentially in free fall is for columns connections to disjoin on roughly one level and shift laterally by the with of one column (14 inches or whatever) - and that is what almost certainly happened. The wall can then descend more or less vertically (subject to the pushing and pulling from still-connected floors).

lexicon008 said:
again agreed, although CDs due tend to collapse more neatly then non CDs i think
Click to expand...
Possibly, probably, but there doesn't really exist any body of references of non-CD highrise collapses.

lexicon008 said:
it was pretty damn close
Click to expand...
Nope. Do you know that part of the north wall, which supposedly fell oh so neatly, actually fell across the street and on top (on the roof) of another highrise there, damaging that other building so severely it had to be demolished in turn? Debris from WTC7 also crossed the street to the west, slamming high into the Verizon building and contributing to the Verizon's >1 billion damage bill.
This is pretty damned different from "into the footprint" and a major deception (lie), in my opinion. You can't possibly say "into foot print" or even "pretty damn close to footprint", if you destroy and majorly damage buildings on the other side of at least two streets!

agreed in essence but again you look at the statement too literally maybe? [/QUOTE]
Maybe we really should expect a group of architects and engineers - professionals in technical, objective disciplines - to be very literal when making technical claims about an objectivily describable technical event?



But back to the point I made:

You had previously agreed that the "freefall" argument isn't valid, and I had asked you what you make of the fact that Gage and, supposedly, his 1900+ A&E, push that argument anyway. You handwaved this question, saying it's just one argument, and perhaps not central.

Now you agree that several other of the arguments Gage and his supposed 1900+ make about WTC are also invalid, or at least weak or ill-defined.

Is it maybe time for you to step back and assume that Gage does not present good arguments for a CD of WTC7 - period? And if he doesn't - who else does? Do any good arguments exist - at all?

I think not.
 
lexicon008 said:
Problem is i don't beleive there are any examples outside of actual demolitions of steel framed skyscraper complete straight down collapse due to fire or earthquake. Partial yes, but how much of a partial collapse would be considered enough to compare? Or are we considering any building material and simply looking at timing?
Click to expand...
It is pointless to compare them. No other building that ever collapsed partially or completely was built in any way like the towers or #7.
 
Oystein said:
"The idea that the towers ought to have tipped over is really very silly and unbecoming of engineers or architects. Tipping over would mean that the center of gravity of the top part of a tower would have to be shifted by 100-200 feet within a very short time (less than, say, 5 seconds). Where so you imagine the momentum for such a move could come from? This would have to get offset by an equal but opposite momentum imparted in the lower part. This is Wiley Coyote physics - has nothing to do with reality.

All it takes for the north wall to descent essentially in free fall is for columns connections to disjoin on roughly one level and shift laterally by the with of one column (14 inches or whatever) - and that is what almost certainly happened. The wall can then descend more or less vertically (subject to the pushing and pulling from still-connected floors)."
Click to expand...

All it takes?

All that pushing and pulling must have occurred extremely fast.

So fast in fact that all the WTC7's vertical supports amazingly cooperated in a synchronous, and instantaneous failure over multiple floors.

It was dropping like a tree felled with one swipe.

The WTC7 7 floor drop in 9 video frames = 3/10 of a second.

MM
 
Last edited:
Miragememories said:
All it takes?

All that pushing and pulling must have occurred extremely fast.

So fast in fact that all the WTC7's vertical supports amazingly cooperated in a synchronous, and instantaneous failure over multiple floors.
...
Click to expand...
Wasn't instantaneous, as you well know. Fast yes, instantaneous no.
There was a transition period of close to a second, preceded by several seconds of internal collapse that compromised lateral bracing.

Absolutely sufficient for progressive (non-instantaneous) collapse. As you very well know, load redistribution occurs at the speed of sound in the material, which os very very fast for steel.

Please indicate that you understand that the equivalant-to-g acceleration of a part of the building for a part of the time did NOT come about "instantaneously" but gradually. You have seen femr2's (and David Chandler's) acceleration graphs, haven't you? Do any of them show a discontinuity, where a increases from 0 (or some value much <g) to g in an instant, i.e. delta-t = 0? Of course not - as you perfectly well know already.


So why do you litter this thread with a disproven lie? I have asked you so many times to stop lying. Will you ever?
 
Miragememories said:
All it takes?

All that pushing and pulling must have occurred extremely fast.

So fast in fact that all the WTC7's vertical supports amazingly cooperated in a synchronous, and instantaneous failure over multiple floors.

It was dropping like a tree felled with one swipe.

................................

The WTC7 7 floor drop in 9 video frames = 3/10 of a second.

MM
Click to expand...
The WTC7 north perimeter wall corner began the fall at less than FFA as the perimeter columns resisted and buckled, then the splices failed, then the wall with no support fell ~ FFA. Chandler ignores his own data for this < FFA period because he doesn't know engineering.

BasqueArch said:
NIST before Chandler
The upper 18 stories took 40 percent longer to fall than free fall time.

NIST after Chandler
The upper 18 stories took 40 percent longer to fall than free fall time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NIST NCSTAR 1-9 Vol2 for Public Comment (Draft Aug 2008)
SUMMARY OF FINDINGS
“Thus, the actual time for the upper 18 stories to collapse, based on video evidence, was approximately 40 percent longer than the computed free fall time and was consistent with physical principles. “
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=909257


NIST WTC7 FINAL - 1A Report (Final November 2008)
SUMMARY
"The observed descent time of the upper 18 stories of the north face of WTC 7 (the floors clearly visible in the video evidence) was 40 percent greater than the computed free fall time.

A more detailed analysis of the descent of the north face found three stages: (1) a slow descent with acceleration less than that of gravity that corresponded to the buckling of the exterior columns at the lower floors, (2) a freefall descent over approximately eight stories at gravitational acceleration for approximately 2.25 s, and (3) a decreasing acceleration as the north face encountered resistance from the structure below."
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=861610


The lower columns buckled and at a small angle the splices failed, then the building fell with no resistance.
It is at this point, after the outside walls were collapsing, that Chandler claims the bombs went off. At all the exterior columns. There was no need.

Exterior columns shown buckled, failed splices.

fig-7-7.jpg



NIST’s velocity graph showing first stage of less than FFA. (Downward velocity shown as positive.)
freefall.jpg


Chandler’s velocity graph showing NIST’s first stage of less than FFA. (Downward velocity shown as negative)
WTC7-VideoAnalysis.jpg

NIST before Chandler
The upper 18 stories took 40 percent longer to fall than free fall time.

NIST after Chandler
The upper 18 stories took 40 percent longer to fall than free fall time.

Lower columns buckle, column splices fail, building wall falls unresisted at FFA. Chandler's silent bombs go off too late, they should have gone off before the building began to fall.
Click to expand...

 
Last edited:
let the wise Dr. Shyam Sunder tell us the dillio:

"Well...um...the...first of all gravity...um...gravity is the loading function that applies to the structure...um...at...um...applies....to every body...every...uh...on...all bodies on...ah...on...um... this particular...on this planet not just...um...uh...in ground zero...um...the...uh...the analysis shows a difference in time between a free fall time, a free fall time would be an object that has no...uh... structural components below it. And if you look at the analysis of the video it shows that the time it takes for the...17...uh...for the roof line of the video to collapse down the 17 floors that you can actually see in the video below which you can't see anything in the video is about...uh... 3.9 seconds. What the analysis shows...and...uh...the structural analysis shows, the collapse analysis shows that same time that it took for the structural model to come down from the roof line all the way for those 17 floors to disappear is...um... 5.4 seconds. It's...uh..., about one point...uh...five seconds or roughly 40% more time for that free fall to happen. And that is not at all unusual because there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case. And you had...you had a sequence of structural failures that had to take place and everything was not instantaneous."
--------

Note that:
--He acknowledges that freefall can only occur if there is no structure under the falling section of the building.
--He acknowledges that their structural modeling predicts a fall slower than freefall.
--He acknowledges that there was structural resistance in this particular case.
--He acknowledges that there was a sequence of failures that had to take place and that this process was not instantaneous.

Thus, he acknowledges that their model is at variance with the observable fact that freefall actually occurred. Their response is to hold to their model, deny that freefall occurred, and put up a smokescreen of irrelevant measurements that obscure the reality.

http://911blogger.com/node/17685
 
Freefall is not evidence for CD.

But my post count now reaching 15 is evidence I can post links.
 
cmckay said:
lol

Left picture: East penthouse intact.
Right picture: East penthouse gone, perimeter falling.

You realize there is several seconds between these pictures?
Click to expand...

Good catch :D

You need to realize that MM hardly ever composes a post without serious errors of fact (I suspect they are very often not merely errors; but in this case may well be)
 
Senenmut said:
...
Note that:
--He acknowledges that freefall can only occur if there is no structure under the falling section of the building.
--He acknowledges that their structural modeling predicts a fall slower than freefall.
--He acknowledges that there was structural resistance in this particular case.
--He acknowledges that there was a sequence of failures that had to take place and that this process was not instantaneous.

Thus, he acknowledges that their model is at variance with the observable fact that freefall actually occurred.
...
Click to expand...

Except he doesn't. All four points are fully in agreement with observed reality:
- He compares models to the behaivious he describes, i.e. average acceleration over several seconds - both align sufficiently
- Of course there was structural resistance - since acceleration was well under for most of the fall as well as on average
- The failure was indeed not instantaneous, as acceleration increased gradually from 0 to about g over a serious span of time.
- Once this period of progressive failure of vertical supports lower in the north wall had practically finished, there was no, or negligible, net resistance from that sub-assembly
 
Wow free fall. Is that a joke.


The idiocy is that there was so little resistance. Most of each tower was pristine and supposedly undamaged.
 
I guess some whiz could provide a free fall time vs the actual collapse time for each of the three WTC buildings.
 
Senenmut said:
let the wise Dr. Shyam Sunder tell us the dillio:

"Well...um...the...first of all gravity...um...gravity is the loading function that applies to the structure...um...at...um...applies....to every body...every...uh...on...all bodies on...ah...on...um... this particular...on this planet not just...um...uh...in ground zero...um...the...uh...the analysis shows a difference in time between a free fall time, a free fall time would be an object that has no...uh... structural components below it. And if you look at the analysis of the video it shows that the time it takes for the...17...uh...for the roof line of the video to collapse down the 17 floors that you can actually see in the video below which you can't see anything in the video is about...uh... 3.9 seconds. What the analysis shows...and...uh...the structural analysis shows, the collapse analysis shows that same time that it took for the structural model to come down from the roof line all the way for those 17 floors to disappear is...um... 5.4 seconds. It's...uh..., about one point...uh...five seconds or roughly 40% more time for that free fall to happen. And that is not at all unusual because there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case. And you had...you had a sequence of structural failures that had to take place and everything was not instantaneous."
--------

Note that:
--He acknowledges that freefall can only occur if there is no structure under the falling section of the building.
--He acknowledges that their structural modeling predicts a fall slower than freefall.
--He acknowledges that there was structural resistance in this particular case.
--He acknowledges that there was a sequence of failures that had to take place and that this process was not instantaneous.

Thus, he acknowledges that their model is at variance with the observable fact that freefall actually occurred. Their response is to hold to their model, deny that freefall occurred, and put up a smokescreen of irrelevant measurements that obscure the reality.

http://911blogger.com/node/17685
Click to expand...

I am not looking for an analysis of someone else's analysis in the this OP, Senenmut. I am looking for how free fall could be evidence of CD. Free fall did possibly occur, it took time to build up to it if it did, and freefall was possibly even exceeded. It was not demonstrably constant free fall. I have shown that a load from the interior collapse can also result in free fall. Free fall is thus not evidence of CD any more than it is evidence of no-CD.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom