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Freedom Infringing Freedom

kimiko said:
Yes, let's look at the math more closely. $7.9 billion in charitable contributions go to lower education now. Currently, private schools make up 27% of the nation's schools but only 11% of the nation's students(NEA). So we have now, not in an imaginary world, 7.9 billion in aid going to whatever proportion of 11% who need it. But since in our make-believe libertarian world the income was doubled from taxes being eliminated, let's say the current giving levels cover twice as many students, so 22%. Then the charitable giving is doubled, so we double it again to 44% of students being educated privately.

That is a much greater percentage than the percent of children who could be considered to be in any kind of real poverty.

Your example with the minimum wage parents doesn't work, because they won't be realizing significant savings from lack of taxes as they would be recieving money back from the government every year under the present system.

That just isn't true. Whatever amount they get back doesn't begin to cover the Social Security and Medicare taxes.

And you've asked before why parents shouldn't get their private school tuition refunded through tax credits or whatever. Well, people with children already recieve Child Credits.

"Child Credits" are bupkis. They don't even begin to cover what they've put into the system...and they're given this regardless of whether or not they put their children into private school or home-school them, or send them to public school.

You keep providing statistics, but you don't really show any understanding of them.
 
shanek said:
Uh, that's paying twice.

I've refuted the statistics you've shown. And this "anecdote" proves that your claim is wrong; I only needed to show one.
It's only 'paying twice' in the sense that one is paying two times. But not everyone would be paying a full public school expense in addition to the private school tuition they've willingly taken on.

No, you haven't refuted my statistics, becuase the statistic was an average. The fact that you could get your special needs child educated for less is already a given, as some people would cost less than the average, others average amounts, and others more than average.

Otherwise I can point to my sister, who needed the expensive care of speech and hearing specialists, separate classes, no mainstreaming, and additional classroom aids as proof that their education does cost more.
 
shanek said:
That is a much greater percentage than the percent of children who could be considered to be in any kind of real poverty.

"Child Credits" are bupkis. They don't even begin to cover what they've put into the system...and they're given this regardless of whether or not they put their children into private school or home-school them, or send them to public school.

You keep providing statistics, but you don't really show any understanding of them.
You do realize that children other than poverty stricken ones recieve financial aid to go to private schools, don't you? At the present levels of giving and application, even if taxes were eliminated tomorrow, only 44% of US students would be given of an education through the private system. Your imaginary world requires changes in distribution of schools, tuitions, and spending of aid in lower education, none of which we have any assurances would happen. Again, it looks like it is faith in the market, not examination of trends in the real world that fuels your belief that every child, or even a majority, would receive an education in the libertarian world.

Child Credits are already subsidies just for the fact that people had children; they arent' intended to reimburse parents for all their expenses, just to offset them. Not everyone gets out of goverment what they put in through taxes, nor should anyone expect to as one's needs and ability to pay will fluctuate through the life-cycle. When people take it upon themselves to reject subsidized public schooling for whatever reason, it doesn't necessarily mean it was a better choice. Private schools can offer whatever they want as education when they don't recieve public monies, and the public has no assurance that they are receiving a quality education, so why should they give an additional subsidy? Since 80% of private schools in the US are religious, there is reason to suspect the children are being exposed to logic and the scientific method being unequally applied, if not instructed to specifically in some classes. Also, you have given no sources showing private schools produce better results even when matched according to income level, parents' education, etc- all the factors that influence a child's outcome.

Really, the burden is on parents to prove that sending little Bobby to Sadr's Freedom-fighter Academy or to the Victory Church of God's Immaculate Love in Jesus Fellowship school actually provides an equivalent education before they expect the public to subsidize it.

Actually, it looks like you don't understand the statistics I'm presenting when you get caught up with certain details and fail to follow the point I'm making. My point about poverty level students was that they would rely entirely on aid. That doesn't mean they are the only students who would need aid.
 
Shanek, I realise that the converstion has moved on a bit but you have bought this up twice now.

That is just absolutely ridiculous. In England, for example, pollution of lakes and streams is kept at bay by private ownership and the private Anglers Conservation Association. This can and does work.

Is there some evidence for this that you could show me? How widespread is this method used for example? You seem to imply that all lakes and streams are cared for in this way.

As far as I know the vast majority of lakes and streams in England are looked after by Defra and the Environment Agency.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/water/index.htm
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subjects/waterquality/?lang=_e
 
kimiko said:
It's only 'paying twice' in the sense that one is paying two times.

Um...in what other sense could "paying twice" mean? This is a bit like saying "It's only wet in the sense that it has water soaked in it."

But not everyone would be paying a full public school expense in addition to the private school tuition they've willingly taken on.

Irrelevant, since I'm not advicating returning a full expense, only the part they've paid into it.

No, you haven't refuted my statistics, becuase the statistic was an average.

The claim that I quoted stated it as a minimum, not an average. The appropriate thing to do here is to say you misspoke.
 
kimiko said:
Really, the burden is on parents to prove that sending little Bobby to Sadr's Freedom-fighter Academy or to the Victory Church of God's Immaculate Love in Jesus Fellowship school actually provides an equivalent education before they expect the public to subsidize it.

I'm not asking them to subsidize it. I'm asking that they be able to keep their money, that they worked hard to earn.

You, on the other hand, are supporting a system that subsidizes an educational system that I find to be clearly inferior, so I don't see where you even get off making such a criticism.
 
shanek said:
I'm not asking them to subsidize it. I'm asking that they be able to keep their money, that they worked hard to earn.

You, on the other hand, are supporting a system that subsidizes an educational system that I find to be clearly inferior, so I don't see where you even get off making such a criticism.
You don't like the system, so where do I "get off making a criticism"? Well, I'm so sorry I have an opinion you disapprove of.

You've repeatedly dismissed the statistics I've given and nit-picked on my phrasing, so I think I'll bow out of this thread now.
 
kimiko said:
You don't like the system, so where do I "get off making a criticism"? Well, I'm so sorry I have an opinion you disapprove of.

You made a very specific accusation of me: that I wanted to subsidize an education you didn't know to be the equal of the one you support. I pointed out that, while I most certainly was not doing that, you were, along with anyone else who supports the government school system.
 
shanek said:
Just read about it on their website: www.a-c-a.org

Ok, but this page states that if you discover some pollution you are to tell the Environment Agency and Emergency Services first and then if you are an ACA member to tell them.

http://www.a-c-a.org/pollution.asp

The Environment Agency makes prosecutions where necessary.

Enforcement
We prosecute for environmental crime. A 24-hour Emergency Hotline enables pollution, poaching and other environmental incidents to be reported: 0800 80 70 60.

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/aboutus/275155/233486/233525/?version=1&lang=_e
 

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