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Free will and determinism

Can the two statements 1. and 2. as set out in this post be true about one person?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 26.3%
  • No

    Votes: 20 52.6%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 2 5.3%
  • On Planet X nothing is true.

    Votes: 6 15.8%

  • Total voters
    38
Your confusion is that you believe that QM proves that randomness is real.
Randomness is something that is assumed by QM and you can't assume something is true to prove it is true.
Not proven true doesn't mean proven false. I am not making any assertions (for or against) without proof.


But you have not given any answer .... let alone not a clear one...

Are you denying that randomness has been proven true?

Or

Are you denying that Quantum Physics has been proven true?

Or

What???
 
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Your confusion is that you believe that QM proves that randomness is real.

Randomness is something that is assumed by QM and you can't assume something is true to prove it is true.

No. Start reading up on Bell's Theorem and all the later follow-up work, there are no hidden variables.
 
  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor the Casino has cheated my client.... he won the Roulette Table spin
  • Defense Lawyer: Your honor the plaintiff placed a bet on #25 and the spin settled on #17... he did not win at all.
  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor under Everett every result comes up, just different versions of my client recorded the result... and so one of the versions of my client WON... and thus the Casino has to pay out.
  • Judge: fuggedaboutitt wiseguy... getoutohere

And that casino did pay out. You clearly don't understand Everett, or QM in general.
 
No. Start reading up on Bell's Theorem and all the later follow-up work, there are no hidden variables.

Absolutely.

A fairly trendy material that owes its good electrical properties to the uncertainty principle is graphene. The electrons are highly constrained in one dimension so the uncertainty in momentum translates to a high electron mobility in the other two.
 
And that casino did pay out. You clearly don't understand Everett, or QM in general.


You too.... need to do what Darat said ... and what I also told the other guy...

No. Start reading up on Bell's Theorem and all the later follow-up work, there are no hidden variables.


Why does that post confuse you?

"Deterministic" means that the same inputs will result in the same outputs. If the same inputs could result in one of several different outputs then the system is not deterministic.


Have you ever heard of something called White Noise or Brownian noise???

Also... although a bit too complex... look up Quantum nonlocality
 
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  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor the Casino has cheated my client.... he won the Roulette Table spin
  • Defense Lawyer: Your honor the plaintiff placed a bet on #25 and the spin settled on #17... he did not win at all.
  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor under Everett every result comes up, just different versions of my client recorded the result... and so one of the versions of my client WON... and thus the Casino has to pay out.
  • Judge: fuggedaboutitt wiseguy... getoutohere

And that casino did pay out. You clearly don't understand Everett, or QM in general.


And very clearly and evidently you do not either...

....
My own view is that Copenhagen is a mess that can't even define the collapse of the wave function coherently, though it can be a useful approximation to what's going on. But these are still open questions, I'm certainly not going to just call it "woo woo" as though that answers the question.
I suggest you look at post #248... for more REALITY... and my personal prejudices too...


All of 248 is consistent with Everett.
 
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And very clearly and evidently you do not either...

Right, my view is that Copenhagen is a mess, but I have the humility to understand that while plenty of physicists share that view, plenty don't. If you want to say "The Copenhagen Interpretation is consistent with everything we know about QM", I won't really argue.

On the other hand, you seem to think that somehow Everett can be ruled out. The funny thing is that you think it can be ruled out by falsifiability arguments, when it assumes nothing other than the the Schrodinger equation is correct. Every other interpretation has to add (unfalsifiable) things to that, like the collapse of the wave function. Everett says "but wait, what would the world look like if the wave function didn't collapse", and sees "oh, it would look exactly like the world we see, so maybe we shouldn't put collapse in by hand".

If you're not happy with that viewpoint, fine, I'm not trying to argue that its the correct view, only that it's one of the alternatives on offer and you can't rule it out.
 
No. Start reading up on Bell's Theorem and all the later follow-up work, there are no hidden variables.

There are no local hidden variables. Even Bohemian Mechanics is consistent with Bell's Theorem. And Everett is as well.
 
The Everett Interpretation is consistent with determinism.....
To make it perhaps more clear: when you do a measurement you get one outcome out of (perhaps) many possible outcomes. How does the universe determine which of those outcomes you get? Under Copenhagen it really is true randomness, nothing determines it, but the various results come up probabilistically as given by the value of the wave function. Under Everett every result comes up, just different versions of you record those measurements.


There are no local hidden variables. Even Bohemian Mechanics is consistent with Bell's Theorem. And Everett is as well.

Unfalsifiable woowoo claptrap can be made to be compatible with everything and anything... because it is nothing but a sleight of imagination.
 
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  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor the Casino has cheated my client.... he won the Roulette Table spin
  • Defense Lawyer: Your honor the plaintiff placed a bet on #25 and the spin settled on #17... he did not win at all.
  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor under Everett every result comes up, just different versions of my client recorded the result... and so one of the versions of my client WON... and thus the Casino has to pay out.
  • Judge: fuggedaboutitt wiseguy... getoutohere

And that casino did pay out. You clearly don't understand Everett, or QM in general.

Right, my view is that Copenhagen is a mess, but I have the humility to understand that while plenty of physicists share that view, plenty don't. If you want to say "The Copenhagen Interpretation is consistent with everything we know about QM", I won't really argue.

On the other hand, you seem to think that somehow Everett can be ruled out. The funny thing is that you think it can be ruled out by falsifiability arguments, when it assumes nothing other than the the Schrodinger equation is correct. Every other interpretation has to add (unfalsifiable) things to that, like the collapse of the wave function. Everett says "but wait, what would the world look like if the wave function didn't collapse", and sees "oh, it would look exactly like the world we see, so maybe we shouldn't put collapse in by hand".

If you're not happy with that viewpoint, fine, I'm not trying to argue that its the correct view, only that it's one of the alternatives on offer and you can't rule it out.


Yes... because it is unfalsifiable woo woo claptrap... meaningless nonsense.... which you do not understand at all.
 
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Everything and anything is compatible with an unfalsifiable woowoo claptrap.

Any theory in which the Schrodinger equation didn't hold would be inconsistent with Everett, which is simply the statement that the Schrodinger equation describes the universe.
And, as you yourself pointed out earlier, that has been extremely well tested.
 
Are you denying that randomness has been proven true?
Of course. It is just assumed in the absence of other information.

Are you denying that Quantum Physics has been proven true?
What do you mean by "true"? If you mean that no other theory (now or in the future) could give the same answers that QM theory gives then the answer is "yes".
 
The Everett Interpretation is consistent with determinism.....
To make it perhaps more clear: when you do a measurement you get one outcome out of (perhaps) many possible outcomes. How does the universe determine which of those outcomes you get? Under Copenhagen it really is true randomness, nothing determines it, but the various results come up probabilistically as given by the value of the wave function. Under Everett every result comes up, just different versions of you record those measurements.

Any theory in which the Schrodinger equation didn't hold would be inconsistent with Everett, which is simply the statement that the Schrodinger equation describes the universe.
And, as you yourself pointed out earlier, that has been extremely well tested.

Yes... as I said.... unfalsifiable woo woo ... legerdemain of the imagination ... can be made to fit anything....

If one says that there are multiple versions of the universe and the casino has to pay out a losing bet because the other versions won... then ... well... this is nonsense.

  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor the Casino has cheated my client.... he won the Roulette Table spin
  • Defense Lawyer: Your honor the plaintiff placed a bet on #25 and the spin settled on #17... he did not win at all.
  • Plaintiff's Lawyer: Your honor under Everett every result comes up, just different versions of my client recorded the result... and so one of the versions of my client WON... and thus the Casino has to pay out.
  • Judge: fuggedaboutitt wiseguy... getoutohere

And that casino did pay out. You clearly don't understand Everett, or QM in general.
 
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Yes, you sound smug.

Now how does Bell's theorem prove that randomness isn't assumed?

It provides the mathematical and later experiments the empirical evidence of the underpinnings behind what you consider are "assumptions".
 

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