Free energy?

Uh, no.

An isolated system can no more convert its total angular momentum into some other form of energy than it can convert its total linear momentum into some other form of energy.

A planet with a gyroscope on it doesn't just slow its rotation, and permit you to get the energy out by hooking a generator to the gyroscope's precession relative to the planet. Such a free lunch would violate mechanics as we understand it.
Hi, Cy.

I can think of an additional counterexample but I'll wait for others to comment. In the meantime, what do you think happens in the system I describe? Can a 1-ton flywheel at 5000 rpm raise a 1-oz. weight one inch over one day? If so, where does the energy come from? If not, how can a Foucalt pendulum precess against the air molecules in the museum foyer?
 
Hi, Cy.

I can think of an additional counterexample but I'll wait for others to comment. In the meantime, what do you think happens in the system I describe? Can a 1-ton flywheel at 5000 rpm raise a 1-oz. weight one inch over one day? If so, where does the energy come from? If not, how can a Foucalt pendulum precess against the air molecules in the museum foyer?

Most of the museum Foucault pendulums give the pendulum a little 'kick' once or twice per swing, to keep it going.
 
Hi, Cy.

I can think of an additional counterexample but I'll wait for others to comment. In the meantime, what do you think happens in the system I describe? Can a 1-ton flywheel at 5000 rpm raise a 1-oz. weight one inch over one day? If so, where does the energy come from? If not, how can a Foucalt pendulum precess against the air molecules in the museum foyer?

Foucault pendulums have little magnetic devices to give them a slight kick on every pass. It's a standard feature since the very first one built by Foucault. It mainly overcomes air resistance from swinging rather than the rotation, as the rotation speed is trivial.
 
Steorn as an Alternate Reality Game

Some would say they're clearly in an alternate reality already if they believe what they are saying, but there's an interesting CT angle on this whole thing... There is a burgeoning entertainment/-marketing technique (if that's the right word) called the Alternate Reality Game which relies on hooking people in to an apparent mystery/conspiracy which deliberately plays with the concept of what's true or real and what's invented.

Wikipedia is best - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_reality_game will give you the basic explanation of what these things are about.

Amongst the ARG community (try unfiction.com), there's considerable debate about whether Steorn's statements are the start of a new 'game'. There's a lot of theorising about whether it is related to the release of Halo2... the fact that the official XBox news site picked up on the Steorn news and linked to it on the first day of its publication is a bit of a giveaway in my opinion.

The best bit is watching the CTs develop - there's always clues buried in amongst the web pages that make up an ARG and as a result there are over-excited people finding 'clues' where none were intended... they could probably teach the 9/11 photo 'analysts' a thing or two...

It's also interesting to see how 'faith positions' develop on what it all means - rationality becomes quite hard to cling to because *all* the evidence is planted and there's no clear way to distinguish any of the non-obvious clues from the hopeful misinterpretaton. There's also a genuine chance that someone involved in posting theories and interpretations really *is* a corporate shill who's being paid to influence opinions...

Ultimately it's a good way to indulge in any latent CT desires you might have without having to really believe what you say (though I suspect there's a few 'real' CT-ers who are the same way)...
 
Last edited:
That linked wiki page is dreadful.

Rigorously that fits a description of a magnetic rotary device where the field interactions are asymmetric, right from the source magnets. And that is a type of Maxwellian system that can and does exist in nature, but that Lorentz arbitrarily discarded in 1892, just to get simpler equations easier to solve algebraically.

BS. Examples in nature... but none given? Up to the limits of classical mechanics, Maxwell's equations are a complete description of all known electromagnetic phenomena, and are even correct for special relativity. If somebody thinks Maxwell is wrong, do provide an example.

Then the proven asymmetry of a dipolarity (separated opposite charges) will absorb ordered virtual photons (and their virtual energy) from the vacuum and coherently integrate it into observable real EM photon energy, and thus emit real observable photons continually without any observable energy input.

BS again. No real observable photons are output by a stationary dipole, only virtual exchange protons. Note that other kooks have talked about extracting energy from the vacuum but this is a different claim than being able to get energy out of a classical magnetic system. Consistency much?

Let's be clear: quantum electrodynamics preserves conservation of energy completely. You can't explain an overunity device by an invocation of quantum mechanics.

It's a classic example of throwing up a lot of quantum jargon hoping most people will think you're clever and smart. It's bull. Total bull.

The two scientists Lee and Yang, of course, predicted broken symmetry in physics back in the early 50s (particularly 1956 and early 57). So startling was this proposed giant revolution in physics -- if real -- that experimenters promptly proved it (Wu and her colleagues proved it experimentally in Feb. 1957). Again, this was such a giant revolution in physics that with unprecedented speed the Nobel Committee then awarded the Nobel Prize to Lee and Yang, in Dec. 1957. And since then, the implications of that vast revolution in all of physics has not even made it across the campus from the physics department to the electrical engineering department.

Nonsense.

There are many symmetries in physics. The symmetry-breaking addressed by Yang and Lee involved charge conjugation and parity. Charge conjugation refers to the laws of physics for antiparticles being the same as for particles; parity symmetry implies the laws of physics are the same if you mirror your coordinates. In fact, C and P are not symmetries of the weak nuclear force, although the product, CP, nearly is (the product CPT including time reversal is an exact symmetry of all quantum field theories). However, C and P are both symmetries of the electromagnetic force even in QED; symmetry breaking only appears when the weak force is included in the electroweak theory.

Neither C or P symmetry has anything to do with rotational symmetry, which is the symmetry that would have to be broken for this magnetic business to work, or time-translational symmetry, which is equivalent to the conservation of energy they claim to be violating.

Time symmetry is very important. Basically, time symmetry means the laws of physics are the same right now as they were this time yesterday - a translation of time coordinates is invariant. This is a feature of both classical Newtonian and all forms of quantum mechanics. Basically, if a system doesn't have an explicit dependence on time, then energy is conserved. This is a consequence of Noether's theorem if you want to look it up.

In QED, energy is conserved by this symmetry during all particle interactions, and therefore in all electromagnetic systems overall.

What evidence is there that electromagnetic interactions have this symmetry? Well, QED is the most precisely measured theory ever; verification of QED prediction of the dipole magnetic moment of the electron (ironically enough) are correct to a couple dozen decimal places. What's more, there's astrophysical evidence that EM physics hasn't changed much over the life of the universe, in measurements of the fine structure of the spectra of very distant objects, which puts an upper bound on the variation of the fine structure constant of something around 1 part in 10^5 over 90% of the universe's life. (I'm going from memory here, and there is one outlying study out of the several performed IIRC.)

Note that time translation is distinct from time reversal. The small violation of T reversal suggested by breaking of the CP symmetry does not involve time translation.

It reminds me of the invention of amorphous semiconductors by Ovshinsky.

Thus begins a few paragraphs of nonsense about how narrowminded and foolish scientists are, with the usual implication that every whack theory ◊◊◊◊ upon by scientists must therefore be the product of a misunderstood genius.

McCarthy and Steorn apparently do not realize that (1) a magnetic pole is actually a magnetic charge, and separated opposite poles are separated opposite magnetic charges (a magnetic dipole)
No, in fact, dipoles are just dipoles. A single electron, for example, is a magnetic dipole all by its little point-sized self.

That follows from solving the “source charge problem” of how any and every static charge just sits there and continues to pour out real observable EM energy (it’s quite measurable!) but without any observable energy input (i.e., the input energy is there and nonobservable, hence virtual, else every charge creates energy from nothing and experimentally demolishes the entire energy conservation law – and therefore demolishes most of present physics and thermodynamics).

Garbage. Static charges don't pour out energy. They can exchange virtual photons with another charge. And if you put another charge nearby that reacts to the field around the first charge, whatever energy you get comes from the finite amount of potential energy you expended assembling the charges in their original configuration.

What is confusing these poor deluded souls is that they don't comprehend real scientists attempting to explain the renormalization problem in quantum electrodynamics.

instead of the assumed “creation of EM energy out of nothing at all”, all EM fields and potentials and their observable EM energy are freely produced from the seething vacuum energy interaction by a combination action of a Maxwell’s demon and a Feynman ratchet, continually applied by those source charges.

More nonsense. It seems at this point they've abandoned their magnetic loop explanation and gone for a different which, in fact, does involve vacuum energy.

Vacuum interactions are a bit like loans: you can "temporarily" have virtual particles with a certain energy, but you have to pay them back. The uncertainty principle allows uncertainty in total energy for periods of time inversely proportional to the amount of energy involved and that allows a virtual particle exchange over a short distance; but when you actually make your measurements, the energies of the system have to add up correctly.

In modern physics, one simply cannot separate the charge from its ongoing active exchange with the vacuum. That is particularly true for asymmetrical Maxwellian systems. E.g., quoting Aitchison...

It is absolutely necessary to understand the scale on which these effects are significant. The quantum theory of electromagnetism reduces to Maxwell's equations, as presently understood without "overunity" nonsense, in the large scale limit (action much greater than Planck's constant). Furthermore, QED absolutely conserves energy as I mentioned above. All this business about QED is a red, red herring.
 
-----

Later: I still haven't found the patent. Several patents by Frederick H. Mishler (5,353,655; 5,150,625; 3,726,146) from keywords might relate but it turns out they are for hand-operated gyroscopes with a mechanism that utilizes precession to increase spin -- which might be handy here. I've read about these toys: You start them with a pull string as usual, then you turn them back and forth in your hand until they reach about 10,000 rpm, making them almost impossible to handle. (Also see Wikipedia for DynaBee and NSDPowerball.)

You'll note Mishler's patents mention using the resulting energy for potential audio and visual output (which they do in the toy, seen in a video ad on the web). This shows the trend towards making every possible obvious claim in a patent. A recent Federal Circuit Court of Appeals ruling, just accepted for appeal by the U.S. Supreme Court, overturned the long-held (and written in law) standard of "obviousness" to instead require a previous publicly-available description of an invention to invalidate its patent due to obviousness. This includes combining existing things in patently :) obvious ways. For info, google "patent obvious appeal".


Is it US Patent 5313850? I searched on "gyroscope and energy and earth and rotation" on the Delphion site and it was the first hit.
 
Is it US Patent 531850? I searched on "gyroscope and energy and earth and rotation" on the Delphion site and it was the first hit.
It looks similar but I'm not sure; it's been a few years. I don't have sufficient incentive/money to become a Delphion subscriber to check subsequent hits. The USPTO site's own search is an extremely poor second/third/fourth/whatever.

Do you agree with Cyphermage? Does the "precessing" gyroscope lift the smallest weight or does the smallest weight cause the gyroscope to turn? If it's the latter then I think the conservation of angular momentum is in even more trouble.

Or maybe I'm completely confused and the gyroscope does not turn in the first place, relative to the ground. But then Foucalt's pendulum wouldn't turn either, would it?

A bit annoying about the hidden kicks to Focault's pendulum. Complicates a nice word picture.
 
A spinning gyroscope stores energy. Put a torque on it and you're doing work. Contrive to have it put a torque on something else, and it's doing work and losing energy.

The description of your mechanism isn't very clear, but nowhere did you show how you get a torque out of the thing without decelerating the gyroscope. (Showing that will require math.)

Thinking you can violate conservation of energy or momentum (linear or angular) is a clear sign you should check your work very carefully.
 
Energy from where?

I think I see my mistake now.

When we spin up the gyroscope it originally keeps its orientation with respect to the "fixed stars" but relative to the ground it is rotating. If we add a load against that rotation the gyroscope will eventually stop relative to the ground but be left rotating relative to the stars. A rotating system can rotate around more than one axis simultaneously.

Sorry!

Foucault. Foucault. Foucault.
 
Energy from where?

I'm trying yet again to fool Mother Nature in my new thread titled Conservation of Angular Momentum (again). See this sub-forum, thread /showthread.php?t=63597. Thanks.
 
I notice that Steorn had a live chat about this on Aug. 24th. See here for the transcript. A lot of no-details answers. One that I know he's BSing about is this:

Q: When can we see second and subsequent patents?
Sean_McCarthy: We do not control when the PTO puts the patents into the public domain
The PTO publishes applications automatically 18 months after filing. So if he knows when they were filed, he should be able to tell you (to within a week or so) when the applications will be published.

If he wanted to file in Canada, he could request an earlier publication date as well.
 
Last edited:
Can anyone here come up with a method for generating energy involving neither ...

I had an idea:
Build a tall tower (like, 100,000 km or so). Hoist weights up to 42,000 km, where they will be in geosynchronous orbit. Then load them on a trolley that runs to the end of the tower. The centrifugal force of the rotation of the earth will fling the trolley to the end.

Possibly the trolley has a cable which turns a dynamo. If we can make the tower as arbitrarily large, we can recover arbitrarily much energy from each weight, to be used to bring more weight up to the 42,000 km mark.

Special bonus: we can use this to launch trash, nuclear waste, condemned criminals, etc. into the sun.

Ideally the tower would be on the equator, and would probably need guy wires to counter the coreolis forces of the whole operation.
 
Can anyone here come up with a method for generating energy involving neither fission (direct [reactors] or indirect [geothermal energy]), nor fusion (direct [reactors, someday] or indirect [solar panels, wind, waves, plants, fossil fuels, solar wind]), nor tidal forces on the earth from the moon or sun (the Bay of Fundy has a tidal power generator; the sun invokes 46% of the moon's tidal amplitude).

One could try tying ropes to things, winding one end of the rope around a spool. The spool would have it's axis attached to a generator. To get electricity, one would simply push the things down holes or off of cliffs.

One could also use the heat generated from nuclear decay to run a heat engine- that's not fission or fusion. But I don't think it obeys the spirit of the challenge. Likewise, you could build a machine which thermally depolemerizes things, and then use it on bacteria that eat chemicals found in rocks. Then you could use the resulting oil to run a generator.
 
Last edited:
One could also use the heat generated from nuclear decay to run a heat engine- that's not fission or fusion. But I don't think it obeys the spirit of the challenge.
Depends on your definition of fission. Fission is just a form of nuclear decay, though usually in reactors you use some neutrons to increase the rate at which other nuclei decay.

Beta and gamma decays aren't really fission, but you might argue alpha decay (which produces a helium nucleus) is.
 
Special bonus: we can use this to launch trash, nuclear waste, condemned criminals, etc. into the sun.

Fun fact: It takes more delta-V to launch something from the surface of the Earth into the sun, than it does to launch something from the surface of the Earth out of the solar system entirely.
 
Fun fact: It takes more delta-V to launch something from the surface of the Earth into the sun, than it does to launch something from the surface of the Earth out of the solar system entirely.
Really?

Is this an angular momentum thing? Do elaborate.
 
Really?

Is this an angular momentum thing? Do elaborate.

To quote myself (from this thread, where the idea of shooting waste into the sun came up)
To get [waste] into the sun requires a huge amount of angular momentum to be given to [the waste], otherwise it just orbits along with the earth.

To get out of earths gravitational well requires about 60 MJ/kg, plus a lot of energy to overcome air resistance. To stop orbiting, so that the waste would fall straight into the sun, would require ~450 MJ/kg. I think some clever orbital manoeuvres could take some of that energy from the earth, but it's still a huge amount of energy to put into disposing garbage.

The moon would be a much better place for an extraterrestrial dump, if it ever even became necessary to have one.

Edit- I suppose I should add: Yes, it's angular momentum. You keep 'missing' the sun if you don't get rid of it. Also, while I used energy to describe the difficulty, that's just because energy is more meaningful when thinking about costs. You can find the momentum from the energy needed.
 
Last edited:
Fun fact: It takes more delta-V to launch something from the surface of the Earth into the sun, than it does to launch something from the surface of the Earth out of the solar system entirely.

Well, the sun is more of a permanent disposal. Otherwise, it takes even less energy to bury it in under a mountain in Nevada.
 
And of course, I forgot to mention that it only takes about 90 MJ/kg to escape from the solar system after getting off earth. Also, to change from MJ/kg to delta-v in km/s, multiply by 2 and take the square root.
 
BTW, Dilb, your fun fact is quite fun. I'll file it with "The Moon's path never curves away from the sun".
 

Back
Top Bottom