Franko's "Universe as a Computer Program" Debunked

[evildave]

See that Wraith? I told you moron-boy never read his own posts.

My, see what a sweety Frankie is? So cuddly cute, like a care bear.

 

[wraith]

I realize this is a waste of time....

.....if you see it that way....

Look up Determinism. If everything is caused by the previous state, where does new information come from? -- Now answer the question, before asking a new one.

The new state is the "new information"

So the universe appeared magically in your cosmology too?

negative
I believe that it is being generated by a Higher Power

Am I to understand you dont know the meaning of the word "example"? I just gave you an example of one
Might I recommend this: www.dictionary.com

I dont think so
please restate

 

[wraith]

See that Wraith? I told you moron-boy never read his own posts.

Target in sight

 

[evildave]

Target in sight

I love it when you kids get into the name calling, and egging on loop.

Come on, is this all you can dredge up? I know Franko had to work all week on that weak little "come-back".

Or are we waiting for the "coin is tails up" dreck to spew forth as a backed up toilet is prone to?

Or perhaps more of "the car is driving you", or the ever so favorite "destined for the abyss" thing.

I haven't even seen a "score' tally of who's damned in months.

At least if you're going to repeat yourself like a useless (predetermined) recording, dredge up some of the old favorites.

 

[MRC_Hans]

.....if you see it that way....

But, I'm patient (I just had 10 minutes to kill).

The new state is the "new information"

Nope, the new state can be deduced (predicted, if you will) from the previous state = no new information.

negative
I believe that it is being generated by a Higher Power

How is that different from magic?

I dont think so
please restate

Cut and paste? Sorry, not my style. Use your scroll button.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

MRC



Did Mandelbrot know what the fractal would look like before he plotted it? As you admit, the picture is “very complex”. How can it be “very complex” and yet hold NO NEW INFORMATION? It was a simple formula … and now it is a “very complex graphic” (a Graphic). That sounds like new information being created out of something small and simple.

But at least we both agree that it is deterministic. If only you could explain what Indeterminism means and why you believe our Universe acts “Indeterminstically” then you might be able to shed your image as a mystic.



Every time the fractal gets bigger you have new information (Energy) entering the Universe/Omniverse. Simple algorithm … grows (evolves) over Time. You are use to hearing people pretend that things are more complicated than they are, because it is in their best interest to prevent you from actually understanding what is going on.

I dont know what Benoit Mandelbrot knew, but I assume he had a good idea what it would be like. When he "invented" the formula, even simple plots took days or weeks.

No, there is no new information added by new iterations, all is determined by the initial state. You can predict exactly what state any coordinate will have at any number of iterations. The iteration number is information too, of course, but that is also available from the start.

The universe is non-deterministic (“Indeterminstically” is not in my dictionary, sorry) because there are random factors. You could add random factors to a Mandelbrot plotter, and the result would be non-deterministic (and probably less pretty).

Every time a random event occurs, new information is added to the system, namely the outcome of that event. Quantum Physics explain how random events occur in the universe, and is backed up by observation. I am aware that you reject QP, but I have not seen any evidence from you on this (it has to be pretty solid evidence to weigh against half a century of scientific research).



Hans

 

[wraith]

Nope, the new state can be deduced (predicted, if you will) from the previous state = no new information.

If you were told that you won the lotto tomorrow, I take it that you would not be surprised?
You already knew it right?

wraith: negative
I believe that it is being generated by a Higher Power

Hans: How is that different from magic?

haha!
If you think that consciousness is magic then go right ahead

Cut and paste? Sorry, not my style. Use your scroll button.

not your style?
oh god
If you dont, Ill just take it that you dont want to

 

[MRC_Hans]

If you were told that you won the lotto tomorrow, I take it that you would not be surprised?
You already knew it right?

I would be very surprised indeed, since I dont play lotto. But what's your point?

haha!
If you think that consciousness is magic then go right ahead

I think some consciousness creating the universe would require magic. Or, at best, it wouldnt be a better explanation than saying it appeared all by itself.

not your style?
oh god
If you dont, Ill just take it that you dont want to

You got it!

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC:
No, there is no new information added by new iterations, all is determined by the initial state. You can predict exactly what state any coordinate will have at any number of iterations. The iteration number is information too, of course, but that is also available from the start.

No, there is new information generated. You need iterations (Time) to generate the new information, but you are correct in that it is DETERMINED by the INITIAL STATE.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Frank, I suggest you read a bit about information theory. If state n+1 is determined by state n, then no information entered the system between state n and state n+1 . In the fractal display, it becomes visible in a new way, but it was there all the time.

Let's take a simpler example: Imagine a counter. Presently it says 347. Increment it three times, what will it say? 350, of course. But you dont really need to increment it to know this. The information is already given in the rules governing counters.

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC:
If state n+1 is determined by state n, then no information entered the system between state n and state n+1 . In the fractal display, it becomes visible in a new way, but it was there all the time.

So fractals exist before they are even plotted?

Or are you claiming that state n and state n+1 are the same thing? If they are different then they are not the same, and that is new information.

Let's take a simpler example: Imagine a counter. Presently it says 347. Increment it three times, what will it say? 350, of course. But you dont really need to increment it to know this. The information is already given in the rules governing counters.

That’s right … simple rules breed complexity over Time …

 

[MRC_Hans]

So fractals exist before they are even plotted?

Doh! Of course they do! Are you claiming that the M set didnt exist till Benoit Mandelbrot wrote down the formula?? Or that the Earth was flat till we figured out it was round??

Or are you claiming that state n and state n+1 are the same thing? If they are different then they are not the same, and that is new information.

Frank, take two pices of paper and write two numbers on them. This is your information. Put them in a box. Are they alike? Does any new information (except the initial numbers) enter the box?

Same with the states of the fractal and the counter: They are all there from the start.


That’s right … simple rules breed complexity over Time …

Nope, the complexity is in the rule. n=n+1 ... very simple, but infinitely long.

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC: (Fanatical A-Theist)
Doh! Of course they do! Are you claiming that the M set didnt exist till Benoit Mandelbrot wrote down the formula?? Or that the Earth was flat till we figured out it was round??

So the Mona Lisa actually existed in prior to Da Vinci painting it?

Are you claiming that the M set didn’t exist till Benoit Mandelbrot wrote down the formula??

Yeah, MRC, I am claiming that things aren’t invented or created until they are invented or created. That isn’t the same as claiming that the Earth was Flat before we determined it was round, it just means that we thought the Earth was flat before someone figured out that it was round.

Kind of the way that TLOP functions even if you don’t fully comprehend TLOP.

Frank, take two pices of paper and write two numbers on them. This is your information. Put them in a box. Are they alike? Does any new information (except the initial numbers) enter the box

MRC are you claiming that humans know no more today then they did 10,000 years ago? What are you claiming? In any event, if you doubt what I am saying I suggest you go read Wolfram, I am not going to explain the basics to you, and you already seem to have a lot of difficulty with the simple concept of Determinism as it is.

 

[MRC_Hans]

So the Mona Lisa actually existed in prior to Da Vinci painting it?

Well, if you can point out a deterministic formula for the Mona Lisa, then ......

Yeah, MRC, I am claiming that things aren’t invented or created until they are invented or created.

So 2+2 was not 4 till somebody "invented" it??

That isn’t the same as claiming that the Earth was Flat before we determined it was round, it just means that we thought the Earth was flat before someone figured out that it was round.

Kind of the way that TLOP functions even if you don’t fully comprehend TLOP.

And the Mandelbrot set functions whether we know about it or not.

MRC are you claiming that humans know no more today then they did 10,000 years ago?

Nope.

What are you claiming?

That no information is created in a deterministic system.

In any event, if you doubt what I am saying I suggest you go read Wolfram, I am not going to explain the basics to you, and you already seem to have a lot of difficulty with the simple concept of Determinism as it is.

Stephen Wolfram? But he's a proponent of QM. Are you sure thats an authority you want to appeal to?

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Actually, what we are talking about is three concepts:

Discovery. The disclosing of something that exists (has "always" existed). Examples: Heliocentric solar system, laws of thermodynamics, fractals.

Invention. The devising of new uses for existing things. The basis has always existed, and the invention could be done by "anybody". Examples: Internal combustion engine, electric generator, microchip.

Creation. The doing of something that has never been done before, and which could not be predefined by existing parameters. This would typically be works of art.

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC,

Franko:
So fractals exist before they are even plotted?

MRC:
Of course they do! Are you claiming that the M set didnt exist till Benoit Mandelbrot wrote down the formula?? Or that the Earth was flat till we figured out it was round??

Franko:
So the Mona Lisa actually existed in prior to Da Vinci painting it?

MRC:
Well, if you can point out a deterministic formula for the Mona Lisa, then ......

You forget what you were arguing MRC? For a minute there it almost sounded like you were arguing that Determinism is True.

Franko:
Yeah, MRC, I am claiming that things aren’t invented or created until they are invented or created.

MRC:
So 2+2 was not 4 till somebody "invented" it??

Until someone defined:

“2” to mean x x
and
“4” to mean x x x x

Are you seriously contending otherwise?

Franko:
That isn’t the same as claiming that the Earth was Flat before we determined it was round, it just means that we thought the Earth was flat before someone figured out that it was round.

Kind of the way that TLOP functions even if you don’t fully comprehend TLOP.

MRC:
And the Mandelbrot set functions whether we know about it or not.

So you are claiming that the Mandelbrot set was Preordained??

What preordained it MRC? It was TLOP and the Initial State (IS) … wasn’t it?

Prior to Mandelbrot “discovering” fractals, how many entities existed other then TLOPIS knew what a fractal looked like?

Prior to humans discovering that the Earth was a sphere, TLOPIS knew – didn’t She MRC?

Franko:
MRC are you claiming that humans know no more today then they did 10,000 years ago?

MRC:
Nope.

I want to make sure I understand you clearly.

So you are claiming that NO – humans do not know any more about the universe today than they did 10,000 years ago.

Is that what you are saying A-Theist?

Franko:
MRC are you claiming that humans know no more today then they did 10,000 years ago?

MRC:
Nope.

Franko:
What are you claiming?

MRC:
That no information is created in a deterministic system.

What is your basis for reaching this conclusion? (what evidence do you have that “no information is created in a deterministic system?”)

Do you understand ANYTHING at all about computers MRC?

You do realize that computers are deterministic systems – don’t you?

Discovery. The disclosing of something that exists (has "always" existed). Examples: Heliocentric solar system, laws of thermodynamics, fractals.

Invention. The devising of new uses for existing things. The basis has always existed, and the invention could be done by "anybody". Examples: Internal combustion engine, electric generator, microchip.

Creation. The doing of something that has never been done before, and which could not be predefined by existing parameters. This would typically be works of art.

Excellent!

I can agree with your definitions of Discovery and Invention, but I am a bit unsure of your definition of “Creation”?

What is the specific difference between Mandelbrot “Creating” a beautiful fractal pattern, and Da Vinci “Creating” the Mona Lisa?

When a computer programmer designs and Creates a computer program, how is that any different then a architect designing and Creating a beautiful building (a work of art)? The process that the programmer and the architect go through is almost identical. The main difference is the material (medium) the two work in.

In other words, I am having problems distinguishing between your definition of “Creation” and your definitions of “Invention” and “Discovery”. Your definition of “Invention” seems to cover “creation” already.

 

[MRC_Hans]

MRC,


You forget what you were arguing MRC? For a minute there it almost sounded like you were arguing that Determinism is True.

Determinism is true, in the sense that some things are deterministic. Evidence shows that not all things are deterministic, however

Until someone defined:

“2” to mean x x
and
“4” to mean x x x x

Are you seriously contending otherwise?

'2' and '4' are the symbols we happen to use, but thats irrelevant. 2+2 would be 4 no matter want symbols we used. 2+2=4 is deterministic, its a discovery.

So you are claiming that the Mandelbrot set was Preordained??

What preordained it MRC? It was TLOP and the Initial State (IS) … wasn’t it?

Prior to Mandelbrot “discovering” fractals, how many entities existed other then TLOPIS knew what a fractal looked like?

The Mandelbrot set has "existed" as long as the universe. It was discovered by humans about half a century ago. TLOP defines it, but TLOP doesnt "know" anything. That requires consciousness.

Prior to humans discovering that the Earth was a sphere, TLOPIS knew – didn’t She MRC?

Provided you believe TLOPIS is a conscious entity, yes. That, however, is not my belief.

I want to make sure I understand you clearly.

So you are claiming that NO – humans do not know any more about the universe today than they did 10,000 years ago.

Is that what you are saying A-Theist?

You asked "Do you claim --etc.". Answer:"No" I do NOT claim that. Human knowledge has changed, and as a whole, we surely know more than primitive Man, although there are things that he knew, which we dont. Rather obviously, it would seem, so I fail to get your point here.

What is your basis for reaching this conclusion? (what evidence do you have that “no information is created in a deterministic system?”)

Do you understand ANYTHING at all about computers MRC?

You do realize that computers are deterministic systems – don’t you?

Frank, I have been programming computers for money before you were born. You point out to me how information is CREATED in a deterministic system. Not moved, not transformed, CREATED. How, in a closed deterministic system, does information appear that wasnt there from the beginning in some form? Feel free to use computer programs as an example.



Excellent!

I can agree with your definitions of Discovery and Invention, but I am a bit unsure of your definition of “Creation”?

What is the specific difference between Mandelbrot “Creating” a beautiful fractal pattern, and Da Vinci “Creating” the Mona Lisa?

Determinism, unless you can show me the formula for Mona Lisa.

When a computer programmer designs and Creates a computer program, how is that any different then a architect designing and Creating a beautiful building (a work of art)? The process that the programmer and the architect go through is almost identical. The main difference is the material (medium) the two work in.

In other words, I am having problems distinguishing between your definition of “Creation” and your definitions of “Invention” and “Discovery”. Your definition of “Invention” seems to cover “creation” already.

A computer program might have a creative element, just like Mona Lisa required the (deterministic) discovery of paint

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC:
Evidence shows that not all things are deterministic, however

Really, Like what?

Franko:
So you are claiming that the Mandelbrot set was Preordained??

What preordained it MRC? It was TLOP and the Initial State (IS) … wasn’t it?

Prior to Mandelbrot “discovering” fractals, how many entities existed other then TLOPIS knew what a fractal looked like?

MRC:
The Mandelbrot set has "existed" as long as the universe. It was discovered by humans about half a century ago. TLOP defines it, but TLOP doesnt "know" anything. That requires consciousness.

TLOP defines it means TLOP preordained it.

And how could TLOP preordain it if (as you claim) TLOP doesn’t “know” anything??? According to YOU TLOP created Fractals well before Mandelbrot ever discovered fractals – TLOP even created Mandelbrot himself. So how can the thing which created fractals be less conscious than the thing that merely discovered fractals?

Entity A makes Entity B, and then Entity A makes Entity C who goes on to discover Entity B, and we are suppose to just take your word for it that Entity A is the least conscious in the equation? Your math isn’t adding up MRC. You are claiming that 2 + 2 is not equal to 4, but you can’t seem to say why you believe it other than you don’t want it to be true.

Franko:
Prior to humans discovering that the Earth was a sphere, TLOPIS knew – didn’t She MRC?

MRC:
Provided you believe TLOPIS is a conscious entity, yes. That, however, is not my belief.

Ohhh I am WELL aware that is your belief A-Theist. Well aware!

But for over a year now I have been asking A-Theists WHY they believe this, and the fact is that they have no evidence for this belief at all. In fact, given the evidence for Determinism (FATE) it seems rather absurd and insane to believe that the thing controlling you is less conscious then you are.

It is EXACTLY like claiming that when you drive your CAR, since YOU are controlling the CAR, it is actually the CAR that is the more conscious entity.

That is utterly absurd. But I find it very amusing how dogmatically you and the other A-Theists religious fanatics cling to it and keep repeating it.

Franko:
I want to make sure I understand you clearly.

So you are claiming that NO – humans do not know any more about the universe today than they did 10,000 years ago.

Is that what you are saying A-Theist?

MRC:
You asked "Do you claim --etc.". Answer:"No" I do NOT claim that. Human knowledge has changed, and as a whole, we surely know more than primitive Man, although there are things that he knew, which we dont. Rather obviously, it would seem, so I fail to get your point here.

My point is that Human knowledge (our overall information database) is increasing over Time. You said that this was not True.

Frank, I have been programming computers for money before you were born.

I seriously doubt that.

You point out to me how information is CREATED in a deterministic system. Not moved, not transformed, CREATED. How, in a closed deterministic system, does information appear that wasnt there from the beginning in some form? Feel free to use computer programs as an example.

I already have. A fractal (like the Mandelbrot set) is a simple algorithm that uses recursion to generate an elaborate, ever changing, ever growing patterns of new (never before seen) information.

 

[MRC_Hans]

(I claim evidence shows that all things are not deterministic)
Really, Like what?

Like quantum mechanics.

TLOP defines it means TLOP preordained it.

And how could TLOP preordain it if (as you claim) TLOP doesn’t “know” anything??? According to YOU TLOP created Fractals well before Mandelbrot ever discovered fractals – TLOP even created Mandelbrot himself. So how can the thing which created fractals be less conscious than the thing that merely discovered fractals?

It can't, in a deterministic universe. But the universe is not deterministic

Entity A makes Entity B, and then Entity A makes Entity C who goes on to discover Entity B, and we are suppose to just take your word for it that Entity A is the least conscious in the equation? Your math isn’t adding up MRC. You are claiming that 2 + 2 is not equal to 4, but you can’t seem to say why you believe it other than you don’t want it to be true.

Disregarding your 2+2 strawman, I believe in an evolving universe. Which is possible if it is not deterministic. If the universe is deterministic, however, as you claim, then the initial state has to be the most complex that ever existed.

Ohhh I am WELL aware that is your belief A-Theist. Well aware!

But for over a year now I have been asking A-Theists WHY they believe this, and the fact is that they have no evidence for this belief at all. In fact, given the evidence for Determinism (FATE) it seems rather absurd and insane to believe that the thing controlling you is less conscious then you are.

What evidence for determinism?

It is EXACTLY like claiming that when you drive your CAR, since YOU are controlling the CAR, it is actually the CAR that is the more conscious entity.

That is utterly absurd.

I quite agree, and I never saw anybody claim it.

But I find it very amusing how dogmatically you and the other A-Theists religious fanatics cling to it and keep repeating it.

I find it amusing how you use your energy on absurd strawmen.

My point is that Human knowledge (our overall information database) is increasing over Time. You said that this was not True.

No, I said that the total amount of information in a deterministic system does not increase. It might be moved around and concentrated in places, however.

However, I agree that human knowledge is increasing. In my cosmology, new information can be created.

(I observe that I have been working with computers for about 25 years)
I seriously doubt that.

Well, I could prove it, but since I won't give you personal information, you'll either have to take my word for it or test me.

(I ask for evidence of information created within a closed, deterministic system)
I already have. A fractal (like the Mandelbrot set) is a simple algorithm that uses recursion to generate an elaborate, ever changing, ever growing patterns of new (never before seen) information.

And you are wrong. Are you sure YOU understand computers? Could you write a Mandelbrot plotter?

Assume we write a Mandelbrot plotter, and compile it: Now we have a deterministic system. We start it and it plots the M set. Where does new information enter? All that happens is that the existing information (initial state) is processed and presented in a new way. The proof of this is that no matter how or by whoom the Mandelbrot plotter is written, the result is always the same. The "system" is preordained to give just this result.

I dont think you have quite realized the consequences of your own cosmology: The claim for total determinism implies total predictability. It means you cannot fart unless it was preordained from the dawn of the universe.

Hans

 

[wraith]

I dont think you have quite realized the consequences of your own cosmology: The claim for total determinism implies total predictability. It means you cannot fart unless it was preordained from the dawn of the universe.

Hans

you have a problem with that?
heaven forbid to have anything that is not magic in nature!